For sure I don’t agree on the killing of any living soul and nothing can legitimate such an act including the killing of journalists and Steven Vincent is no different, the guy was just a journalist doing a peaceful job.
But why this exaggeration of showing feelings and I am talking about ordinary people here in websites and Blogs, people are shading tears and they tell that couldn’t sleep when they heard the news and others tell that they are saddened they whole day or in panic, at least one of them tell us about the last minute of the martyrdom of Steven Vincent.
There are 63 journalists died
Is being an American journalist makes people more superior than the others or I missed something?
Any clue???
P.S
I am not addressing the Americans here
Pingback: Iraqi Bloggers Central
shaku maku lady?
i agree with you and quite some with christopher albritton on this. he blogged about it at his ‘back to iraq’ (from baghdad).
http://www.back-to-iraq.com/archives/2005/08/steven_vincent.php
Hi Cic
I saw your interview in the Volkskrant. I will call you
shukraniooo! ;)
I wonder who killed him? :)
U.S. Embassy Says American Journalist Found Dead in Basra
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB1JX76XBE.html
The Associated Press
Published: Aug 3, 2005
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) — An American freelance journalist was found dead in the southern Iraqi city of Basra, the U.S. Embassy said Wednesday.
Police said Steven Vincent had been shot multiple times after he and his Iraqi translator were abducted at gunpoint hours earlier.
“I can confirm to you that officials in Basra have recovered the body of journalist Steven Vincent,” said embassy spokesman Pete Mitchell. “The U.S. Embassy is working with British military and local Iraqi officials in Basra to determine who is responsible for the death of this journalist. Our condolences go out to the family.”
Iraqi police in Basra said Vincent was abducted along with his female translator at gunpoint Tuesday evening. The translator, Nour Weidi, was seriously wounded.
Vincent and the translator were seized Tuesday afternoon by five gunmen in a police car as they left a currency exchange shop, police Lt. Col. Karim al-Zaidi said.
Vincent’s body was discovered on the side of the highway south of Basra later. He had been shot in the head and multiple times on his body, al-Zaidi said.
Police said Vincent, a Web blogger who had been living in New York, had been staying in Basra for several months working on a book.
In an opinion column printed in The New York Times on July 31, Vincent wrote that Basra’s police force had been heavily infiltrated by members of Shiite political groups, including those loyal to radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
Vincent quoted an unidentified Iraqi police lieutenant as saying that some police were behind many of the assassinations of former Baath Party members that have taken place in Basra.
“He told me that there is even a sort of “death car” — a white Toyota Mark II that glides through the city streets, carrying off-duty police officers in the pay of extremist religious groups to their next assignment,” he wrote.
Vincent was also critical of the British military, which is responsible for security in Basra, for turning a blind eye to abuses of power by Shiite extremists in the city.
The Sadr-ists killed him, George. They are only a snake’s scale better than the “Resistance”, and the Brits made a deal with the Devil to maintain relative peace and order in Basra. It is coming back to haunt.
dakruser
The Islamists in Basra are pro-Iran just like the current government, Al-Sadr is not pro-Iran actually the Iranians and Al-Sadr are enemies because Al-Sadr is a real Iraqi and one day can claim the position of his father as a leader of the Shiia, while the current leader Al-Sistani is an Iranian and Iran want to keep it this way.
If al-Sadr dies then the Iranian domination on Iraq is complete.
Steven Vincent was my blog-friend.
We supported each other’s blogs.
We blogged about each other’s entries and linked to each other.
We both live in New York and we were here together on 9/11 and saw up-close and personal the carnage wrought by Islamic extremists.
Both in his book “In the Red Zone” and in his many articles and blog entries, you will find fine reporting and even-handed commentary and someone who tackles the bedrock of many of the issues in Iraq. His book remains a must-read.
More than most countries, Americans blog and comment on blogs. Check any hit-counter and you’ll see how many Americans are participating, and this explains to some extent the outpouring of emotion for Steven Vincent.
Steven Vincent was my friend.
Unfortunately, it is now predictable that Ladybird would take a CHEAP SHOT at a man who was murdered in Basra.
Cheap shots at dead men?
Is that what this blog has turned into?
*
Read the P.S
Does anyone seriously believe Jeff(rey) has any friends, particularly one that seemed intelligent?
LadyBird,
In his 9Jul05 posting to the Christian Science Monitor, he clearly described the picture of the “black turban” in the ubiquitous pictures as Sadr. He described the picture as having a chunky face and squat stature. Sistani would have been tall, with a thin face. I’m not arguing, I haven’t been to Basra personally, so I can’t say from personal experience. I was only using his description as my referrence.
LB,
The mourning for Steve is because we, the world, lost someone who was important to us and was making a difference. Most journalists seek to write stories about what is important to them and their editors. Steve wrote about what was important to Iraqis.
From this Canadian-in-China perspective, your question, LadyBird, while at one level being of interest (I have my own questions about correlating skin colour, numbers dead and placement on newspaper front pages)–notably the whole “why are white lives considered more valuable than others?” issue–it is, on another level, blatantly silly.
To address that second point: it is obvious that we care more about those we perceive as closer to us. My father’s death? Devastating. Deaths of my various grandparents? Hurtful. Death of a distant member of the family I saw once in four years? Disturbing. Death of a friend’s parents (who I never met)? A little depressing. Death of a fellow citizen? Noteworthy. Death of people I have no known relationship to whatsoever? A statistic if it registers at all.
If you claim to be different? I call you a liar.
You ask “is being an American journalist makes people more superior than the others or am I missing something?” The answer is: yes, you are missing something. Reactions to a person’s death, especially someone one does not know, will vary according to many factors and is not, as you would appear to think by your rhetorical question, calibrated according to your scale of politically correct thinking. I. for instance, am English and had read Steve Vincent’s article in the International Herald Tribune on Monday a couple of days before I then had to read about his death in the Asian Wall Street Journal. If I had not read the article, I might have reacted with less sadness at the loss of a good man and anger at the Islamofascists and regret that the British army is not introducing ideoligical reform into the Basra police structure. You are no doubt aiming your remarks about supposed feelings of superiority at American reactions. You should understand that there are families of sympathy, so that the outrageous murder of,say Daniel Pearl, with its overtones of both anti-Americanism and anti-semitism, affected the responses of people in the “Anglo-Spehere” more strongly than if, say, a Korean journalist had been murdered. We all have a limited capacity for sympathy and fellow-feeling,and the sufferings of many must regrettably lie outside those limits, except in the abstract. Sometimes, the suffering of another who is not a member of our national or professional family, and who may not even be of our own time, like for example Anne Frank the victim of those progenitors of the Islamofascists, may find a path to our sensibility, but this will remain an exception. You must understand that the deaths of those nearer to us affect us more than those further away and the reason for this is not because we view those nearer as superior to those farther away, although this will sometimes be the case, but because humankind cannot bear much reality.
I totally disagree with these comments and to me they represent the cause of our current predicament.
When I heard about 9/11 I was on a Greek island just off the Turkish coast, it was a moment of great sadness and that evening I became extremely cross and indeed aggressive, with a couple of Moslem Turkish waiters who found the whole tragedy quite amazing. But I have to say years later, that they were right and I was wrong, the only mystery about 9/11 is why it took so long to happen. The USA has been financing Israeli terrorism for years without the slightest care or worry about retribution, and it’s still continuing today.
The media, particularly in the USA, gives huge coverage to the bi-annual Palestinian suicide bomber but has little or no interest in the continuous ethnic cleansing and territory grabbing by the Israelis.
Over the past year, 869 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli military while Israelis, both military and civilian deaths have totalled 118, a better than 7 to 1 ratio. More than 12,000 Palestinian homes have been either demolished or damaged in the West Bank since 2000. Between September 2000 and September 2004, more than 24,000 Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip have been made homeless by Israeli house demolitions. In the first months of 2004, the Israeli Defence Forces demolished on average 120 residential buildings each month or four per day. In Rafah, in the southern Gaza Strip, home demolition increased from 15 homes per month in 2002, to 77 homes per month in the first nine months of 2004. Some 13,230 dunums (3307 acres) of land have been cleared or damaged due to the barrier construction in the West Bank. Infant mortality, in the Occupied Territories has increased each year since 2000.
Likewise with the bombing in London which was totally due to the support Blair has given to the illegal oil invasion, what was it 60 dead?
On the same day a new report came out estimating the total number of Iraqis dead, all due to the invasion, to be 123,000 and not a mention was made of this by the BBC or British newspapers. I consider the death toll in Iraq to be over 2000 times more serious than the insignificant incident in London, to me it’s merely a question of mathematics.
Frankly I couldn’t care a jot about some American Journalist in Iraq, most of those that morn his death have total disinterest in the many journalists deliberately assassinated by the US Military and I certainly don’t value the life of an American more than an Iraqi, to be honest a great deal less.
Michael
Well said and could read between my lines
michael
You state that you value the life of an american journalist much less than that of an Iraqi. Yet you spare no effort to criticise americans who value an Iraqi life less than an american.
That makes you a hypocrit.
Ladybird then felt compelled to join you in your hypocrisy.
A pox upon both of you. You are racists claiming not to be. A man is judged by his deeds. The measure of his loss is the deeds that are left undone.
On the contrary moron, it’s because of the Nazi type activity by the US Forces which is sanctioned by the US Government that I feel that way. The Iraqis didn’t illegally invade the USA, I think you will find it was the other way around, you deserve all you get.
http://cpj.org/enemies/worst_places_04/worst_places_04.html
U.S. forces pose an additional threat to working journalists: at least seven—and possibly as many as nine—journalists have been killed by gunfire from U.S. forces. Other journalists—mostly Arab or Iraqi—have been detained and suffered mistreatment at the hands of U.S. forces
If I might weigh in here…
I have refrained from comment because LadyBird asked Americans to do just that.
HOWEVER,
Since Georgy has decided to take this opportunity to throw bombs and expect the Americans to blithely catch them and feel good about the explosion directly after, something has to be said.
LadyBird, I grieve for every single innocent that dies in Iraq. It is a terrible thing that is happening there every day. Car bombs continue to kill more innocents than Americans/Coalition soldiers, yet Michael continues to defend their use because the “Americans shouldn’t be there anyway”. The point being, was Stephen’s life “WORTH” more than any single Iraqi’s? The obvious answer is a resounding “NO”. Is any Iraqi’s life worth more than an American’s? The answer is the very same.
In God’s eyes every life is INVALUABLE. The reason so much outpouring of grief, (and yes I used the term Martyr in one of my comments directly related to him) is because he was taken out and shot. No, he was assassinated, just like Daniel Pearl. A journalist that is photographing a fire-fight and catches a round is a tragedy. Being taken out and shot multiple times when your hands are bound behind is a TRAVESTY.
Our outrage is due to the Modus Operandi of his murderers. This man had NOTHING to do with the fighting. He was reporting on a situation in a “relatively” peaceful area of Iraq, and because he publicized the current level of corruption there he was shot by Gangsters who don’t want their grip on power, and how they hold it, to be publicized.
I understand your consternation, LadyBird. The bloggosphere suddenly erupted with emotion at his death, and it may well seem to be due to his nationality. It wasn’t. It was because many bloggers read his posts regularly and had begun to appreciate him as both a truthful source, and something like a very close friend. His death struck them to the quick and they reacted. I hope this post helps you to understand where we are “coming from”. Michael’s continue to be nothing more than a soap-box for his anti-Americanism.
To me it’s quite simple. If a burglar breaks into your house and in doing so gets killed, is his life as important as the person that resides there? Nope is the clear response, he shouldn’t have been in Iraq in the first place, he entered illegally, the legitimate Government of Iraq never gave him permission. His entry was just as illegal as the occupation forces.
No, George
The loss of life is the same. No one person is more important or worthy of life than another. The thief in the night may well have “bought and paid” for his death, and the person he was robbing may well feel “OK” about shooting him. BUT does that mean his family does not grieve him? No. A life is a life.
Michael has chosen a metaphor to suit his prejudices which is of course entirely inappropriate. A more accurate parallel would be to the man who, hearing a husband beating up his wife next door, enters to stop it and is killed in the process. We mourn for such a man.
To continue with yours Derek. A husband beating up his wife is interupted by an intruder who sadistically tortures, steals, murders and rapes instead.
I give you credit, George. You can twist words with the best of them. You may well be as stubborn as myself, but you are wrong in your evaluation and as such continue to be stubbornly wrong.
David you just need to ask yourself one question. Is Iraq in better shape now than it was in Feb.2003?
George, you need to ask YOURSELF two questions.
If peace had occured with the fall of Baghdad, would Iraq be better now than in Feb ’03?
Then ask yourself…If the “Resistance” stopped “resisting”, would the fighting stop? Because the only thing that has changed since that date is an increase in THEIR level if violence.
Ooops I forgat what I wrote today at work, must go fetch it
The answer to your question David is NO. That’s because I believe Iraq belongs to the Iraqis and the natural resources therein, not to some fascist parasitic nation which believes might is right and are prepared to break International law and the Geneva Convention in pursuit of their greed.
So, if I am to understand you, George.…
Iraq was better under Saddam than it would be with a Representative Government.
In every way David, is there seriously any doubt of that?
Representative Government is ALWAYS better than dictatorship. You seriously disagree? Wait, you say you live in Cuba. I guess that makes sense. Nevermind. You have no concept of “Freedom” and its worth.
There’s democracy and there’s American democracy. There’s absolutely nothing between Democrats and Republicans, both parties are corrupt and a part of big business and it seems that American citizens have no alternative but to vote for one of them which makes the USA in affect a one party state.
The temporary puppet Government in Baghdad is based on the same model.
Interesting observation, George. Incorrect, but interesting. It says alot for your world-view. Warped, but interesting.
I guess what we have to do is to define terms more exactly so you can’t have your way so easily.
Fact one: The US has NEVER been a “Democracy” by definition. It is, instead, a Republic.
Fact two: The “People’s Democratic Republic of Cuba” has NEVER been either Democratic system nor a Republic.
Fact three: When one party DECIDES not to participate in an election *no matter the cause of their rejection* they cannot complain about the results.
Fact four: The Kurds and She’ats are being WAY more understanding of the Sunnis than the other way around concerning the set-up of the now Iraq.
Fact five: This posting was NEVER designed to be a continuation of the old hashing of a moot point, *ie. the US is IN Iraq*, but to discuss the amount of attention over the death of Mr. Steven Vincent. *a man that even you inferred was intelligent*
The USA is supposed to be a democracy, the term “Republic” used in conjunction with democracy simply means that the head of State is elected by an assembly of citizens as opposed to a King,Queen or Emperor.
In the case of the USA it’s doubtfully that compliance with “elected by an Assembly of citizens” was in fact the truth.
But the point is, can you name one improvement to the Iraqi way of life that this so called democratic puppet Government has brought?
Many good comments.
Why did so many people respond the way they did when Khalid Jarrar was simply arrested — not killed — in Baghdad?
Because he was Iraqi?
No, because all of those people had been reading his blog and had made an emotional connection with him.
Why did so many people respond the way they did when they learned of Steven Vincent’s murder?
Was it because they believe Americans are superior?
C’mon, this is complete bullshit!
Why did they respond as they did then?
Because all of those people — like me — had either read his book on Iraq or had read his weblog and had made an emotional connection with him.
Ladybird?
What do you think the response would have been if Khalid Jarrar had been killed by thugs entering the Jarrar’s home in Baghdad?
This is really sad to say, but Ladybird — someone I used to greatly respect — is no longer interested in a balanced assessment of the situation in Iraq. She has simply become a knee-jerk anti-American.
Proof?
Read her entries for the last month and show me ONE entry where she is even-handed in her commentary.
*
George,
Name me one positive thing the “Resistance” has wrought.
Even HAMAS (terrorist organization that they are) builds schools, hospitals, civic organizations, etc. To my knowledge all the “Resistance” does is blow up markets, electric plants, water pipes, drive carbombs into military vehicles in the middle of traffic, and cut peoples’ heads off. Name one of these things that are “good”.
If you want to play this silly little game, I can.
Bring your “A” game.
Jeff
Will be answered soon
Ladybird,
Take your time. No amount of spurious reasoning will allow you to rebut that last comment from me.
Many people around the world responded to Khalid Jarrar’s arrest because they identified with him. The outpouring of emotion over Khalid’s arrest, in fact, was much more effusive than that for Steven Vincent’s death. People contacted congressmen and there were multiple letter-writing campaigns. All because he was arrested. Not killed.
Many people around the world responded to the news of Steven Vincent’s death because they identified with him. Like with Khalid, people had read Steven’s blog and saw him as someone they could trust to tell them about Iraq.
Khalid is Iraqi and Steven is American, but their nationality has nothing to do with these utterly HUMAN responses to people we have come to know through their writing.
Please, enough already, Ladybird.
Just admit you were wrong and we can move on.
C’mon, give your anti-American a rest for a week or two.
*
I completely agree with you Jeffery. I used to read LadyBird for the unique information she provided. However, her posts are containing less and less information and more and more rants. I can find that all over the web.
I would ask both of you to continue to trust her. We all go through our “down-times”. It is obvious that she is concerned about Iraq, and Iraqis, and is frustrated with the lack of progress. Aren’t we all?
She is still a level head in this. Her questions have been pointed and difficult, for sure, but it is MUCH easier to find “stuff” in the world to criticize the Coalition/Iraqi Gov’t than it is the “Resistance”. It has become too “Politiaclly Correct” to condemn them for the crimes they have committed. Especially in Europe there are many who express the same view as George…that being…no matter what the “Resistance” does is justified because it is all the fault of the US. That is, of course, RUBBISH. Every man, woman, and child is (and will be) held accountable for his/her actions. Murder is murder, torture is torture, and false witness is false witness.
She knows this. She has said as much. Frustration can make one act so that they “seem to be” something they are not really.
Wow, michael is getting slapped around by the “warmongers.” unfortunately, this fool refuses to change his mind in the face of logic. Michael would rather rewrite his anti-American script to distract readers from his failure to reason. Please, Michael, address this: Were there no “resistance,” Iraq would be reaping the benefit of billions of dollars in US aid. Please explain how this is not true. Money is being wasted on security because people like Michael believe the US is trying to “colonize” Iraq. Such rationale may have made more sense if Iraq was not a failed state. Sad, sad, selfish Michael. Your political position, and that of the “resistance,” is resulting in needless Iraqi civilian deaths.
It’s a shame Fox News doesn’t have a forum where you could exchange fantasies. Who cares about a dead American journalist? What about the 9 journalists the US Army has murdered?
It’s interesting tha David is totally unable to identify a single improvement “American democracy” has brought to Iraq.
The USA is in Iraq to control the oil, it’s laughable to suggest otherwise. Without the Resistance the USA would never leave until Iraq was dry. Even the money that is being made on the reduced output is being stolen by the American Government or companies.
Perhaps your “logic” can explain why the USA has so far spent $200 billion if it’s not an investment for the oil?
http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9319
A special auditor monitoring billions of dollars spent by the U.S. on Iraq’s reconstruction found millions of dollars worth of fraud by American officials and companies.
http://antiwar.com/ips/mekay.php?articleid=3426
Three U.S. senators have called on Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to account for $8.8 billion entrusted to the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) in Iraq earlier this year but now gone missing.
dakruser,
I still consider Ladybird a friend and fellow blogger. I do hope, however, that she will return to her old even-handedness.
She’s has been speaking the last month or so too often in black and white terms (Americans are evil) while the truth, as we know, lives in the grey areas.
But I will wait patiently as you suggest.
*
Let me ask you one question Ladybird. Take the Japanese journalist as an example. How many Japanese websites, newspapers and television broadcasts did you visit, read and watch? Part of the reason your are finding the response to this particular murder fo objectionable is because you are reading English language blogs and English language newscasts. The ownership of the technology as well as the technology itself is primarily an American phenomenon. One would hardly expect Americans, who are using their own technology, to remain silent when one of their own has fallen. When you can demonstrate that the murder of a Japanese journalist did not similarly arouse Japanese citizens to respond in the Japanese language using in Japanese ideographics, then you may have a point. I don’t read Arabic syllabics, but my hunch is that Arabic language websites, newspapers, and television networks gave equal coverage to the killing of both the Japanese and American journalists and that equal coverage was much less than the coverage they give to incidents involving the murder of Arab citizens.
Journalists speak to their readers. Their readers respond and that’s the same no matter where you live or what your nationality. Try a little outside of the box thinking once in a while, will you.
Nice try George..
I will not be redirected here. Name me ONE good thing the Resistance has done for the IRAQI people. If you say “keep the US from stealing their oil”, then I say we brought democracy. Now we are even 1 vs 1. You come up with one OTHER thing.
This is my business, George. IF that last comment is your A game you need to change leagues.
Sorry David but you claim the USA invaded Iraq for the benefit of Iraqis but at the same time you are unable to identify a single improvement. The Resistance work hasn’t finished yet, but when it has Iraq will belong to the Iraqis instead of the evil parasitic, corrupt, perverted, thieving Americans.
A single improvement, Michael??? LOL!!!
The Butcher of Baghdad is dead and so are both of the men being groomed to carry on the dynasty. Iraqis have experienced a real election for the first time in more than 50 years and they are about to be given the chance to vote on a constitution. If they reject it in the poles, they will then have a chance to send a different bunch to their national assembly and give another try.
If those are not substantial steps in the direction of improvement, then I don’t know what you would think could be.
Your cavalier dismissal of the significance of these events belies cold, stark indifference to the 500,000 Iraqis murdered, maimed, exiled and tortured by their very own benevolent dictator over the past 25 to 30 years.
Then again, maybe you are just a spoiled brat who has always been given what you wanted two minutes after you start a tantrum and you just can’t grasp that in the real world, things evolve at a much slower rate than a half-hour sitcom or the latest version of Star Wars.
I sorry to have to be the one to break this to you Louis but your fairy tales of 500,000 Iraqi dead under Saddam came right out of the White House. That’s right the same people that gave you WMD, links with terrorism, able to strike the West in 45 minutes, human industrial shredders etc, etc. Even Tony Blair in a moment of lucidity admitted it was all a scam “PM admits graves claim ‘untrue’” http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1263830,00.html
But I expect you still believe it all Louise. Of course we could discuss the 100,000 Iraqis killed during Colin Powell’s turkey shoot when Iraqis soldiers were bulldozed into the ground still alive, or perhaps the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children that Mad. Albright said were “worth it” or even the 123,000 Iraqis killed during the illegal oil invasion.
True Iraqis died when Saddam was in power but no where near the same amount of deaths caused by the uSA. Most deaths during Saddam’s time happened during the Iraqi/Iranian war when the USA sold poisonous gas to both sides.
So don’t tell me I don’t live in the real world, it’s about time you got your head out of your ass and started to learn the truth.