Sometimes there is really nothing more to say:
The notion that we ought to now go to Baghdad and somehow take control of the country strikes me as an extremely serious one in terms of what we’d have to do once we got there. You’d probably have to put some new government in place. It’s not clear what kind of government that would be, how long you’d have to stay. For the U.S. to get involved militarily in determining the outcome of the struggle over who’s going to govern in Iraq strikes me as a classic definition of a quagmire.
Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney speaking on NPR in 1991
Listen to what he said in 1991 on NPR.
The only speech by any statesman that can bear reprinting from the low, dishonest decade of the 90s came from Tony Blair when he spoke in Chicago in 1999. Welcoming the defeat and overthrow of Milosevic after the Kosovo intervention, he warned against any self-satisfaction and drew attention to an inescapable confrontation that was coming with Saddam Hussein. So far from being an American “poodle,” as his taunting and ignorant foes like to sneer, Blair had in fact leaned on Clinton over Kosovo and was insisting on the importance of Iraq while George Bush was still an isolationist governor of Texas
Nadia,
I think many people fail to realize that the US needed no special convincing or prodding regarding the need to get rid of Saddam. We already fought him in 91, he had violated the very terms of the cease fire blatantly for over a decade, and he was targeting our aircraft almost daily. We knew his track record and what we could expect from him. He had not changed one bit.
Regarding WMD, we went in to verify disarmament once and for all because Saddam was incapable from the beginning of being truthful regarding disarmament. Apparently honesty would have served him better. Let’s all shed a tear for dear old uncle Saddam.
Regarding links to al quaeda, I think things have been spun by the liberal left and their fascist allies (what a combo!). Bush never said Saddam was behind 9/11. We already knew he was our enemy, we already knew he harbored and sponsored terrorists. These are established facts. Terrorists murdered thousands of our civilians in cold blood and we decided we would take the war to the terrorists and the countries that support terrorism.
The 9/11 Commission report conclusions, which the liberal media created banner headlines screaming “No Connection” between Saddam and Al Quaeda, have been falsely spun. The report was very clear that throughout the 90’s Saddam and al quaeda had made mutual offers of cooperation and had met on numerous occasions that they knew of. One can assume they met more times that we didn’t know about. The number of times is not critical. The fact that our enemies were in negotiations and had offered each other support is critical. The report found that it had no convincing evidence that Saddam was operationally involved in the planning and execution of 9/11. That doesn’t mean that their confirmed unholy alliance was not a threat.
Maybe that’s not enough for you. I’m not sure what is enough then. He slaughtered and tortured his own people, used WMD on them and neighbors, never agreed to the cease fire terms of the war that he started and lost, was in negotiations with al quaeda, and was by all standards a nasty turd.
Any one of the above (except the ‘turd’) should be cause enough for a just world community to take action.
Only a few countries did. And you blame them.
A positive accounting of the efforts of United States,Great Britain and the other members of the pro=liberty Coalition would include:
(1) The overthrow of Talibanism and Baathism, and the exposure of many highly suggestive links between the two elements of this Hitler-Stalin pact. Abu Musab al Zarqawi, who moved from Afghanistan to Iraq before the coalition intervention, has even gone to the trouble of naming his organization al Qaeda in Mesopotamia.
(2) The subsequent capitulation of Qaddafi’s Libya in point of weapons of mass destruction–a capitulation that was offered not to Kofi Annan or the E.U. but to Blair and Bush.
(3) The consequent unmasking of the A.Q. Khan network for the illicit transfer of nuclear technology to Libya, Iran, and North Korea.
(4) The agreement by the United Nations that its own reform is necessary and overdue, and the unmasking of a quasi-criminal network within its elite.
(5) The craven admission by President Chirac and Chancellor Schröder, when confronted with irrefutable evidence of cheating and concealment, respecting solemn treaties, on the part of Iran, that not even this will alter their commitment to neutralism. (One had already suspected as much in the Iraqi case.)
(6) The ability to certify Iraq as actually disarmed, rather than accept the word of a psychopathic autocrat.
(7) The immense gains made by the largest stateless minority in the region–the Kurds–and the spread of this example to other states.
(8) The related encouragement of democratic and civil society movements in Egypt, Syria, and most notably Lebanon, which has regained a version of its autonomy.
(9) The violent and ignominious death of thousands of bin Ladenist infiltrators into Iraq and Afghanistan, and the real prospect of greatly enlarging this number.
(10) The training and hardening of many thousands of American servicemen and women in a battle against the forces of nihilism and absolutism, which training and hardening will surely be of great use in future combat.
Christopher,
If you are ‘the’ Christopher we would all enjoy your direct participation in this forum.
If you are not ‘the’ Christopher but rather someone who likes his work and insists upon spamming it out to the forums, please refrain. Its annoying when anyone does that — neocon, islamofascist, whoever.
‘The’ Christopher would probably make for compelling discussion if he were to choose to engage in discussion.
Not that I’m a monitor here or anything, but its just common etiquete within a discussion forum.
This is a propaganda site, Charles — nothing so respectable as a discussion forum unfortunately. I wish it were..
You are probably right. It just irks me to the core (or at least nags at me a bit), when I read some of the ignorant garbage posted on these sites.
I understand Charles and i apologise to you personally for “plagiarising” the Hitch, but I feel that any tactic is suitable in this kind of guerilla cyber war and with Hitch on this subject it is a question of “what oft was thought but ne’er so well expressed”. It is probably the only way this blog owner is going to get to read it.
Ok — Mutual apologies — etc., etc. Posting it once is probably fine anyway. Enough said.
Surprise Surprise, “Mike” McCheesey flashes her (|) to Katrina on the last thread. “How Sad! ☺ Let’s hope Katrina flattens the whole of NO and LA, it’s nothing less than they deserve.”
This from the gal who claimed she was a member of the Peace Movement in Texas not so long ago!
Haven trouble keeping of the lies are we “Mikey”!! LOL~!!
Once again cry babies..ALL YOUR OIL BELONGS TO US!!
Girls,
Islam The Religion Of Pieces™
To Chtistopher– “This is a propaganda site, Charles — nothing so respectable as a discussion forum unfortunately.”
And I supposed the right-wing rhetoric of the sites you seem to prefer frequenting have the straight skinny on everything, right?
The truth is probably somewhere in between. Saddam was indeed a bastard, blah blah blah, and should have been killed. Bush, while possibly not lying when he made his case against Iraq blah blah blah, indeed misrepresented the facts and the US has no legal basis for attacking Iraq. Yes, people can speak their minds openly on the streets of Baghdad. Yes, you could fill the holds of fifty oil tankers with the corpses of those who died during the process. But the current situation is that Saddam is gone, Iraqis want the US out, the US has no right to impose it’s will over another sovereign nation and the polite thing would be to get out. Let them work it out for themselves. If Iraq requires US intervention in the future, it’ll ask for it.
To Everyone– BTW… this isn’t a contest, it’s a blog. Whoever posts (pastes) the highest number of characters doesn’t automatically win.
Also, from what I can gather, this blog is the sole property of LadyBird and as such, when here, it would be considered in many circles the right thing to do, to treat her with courtesy and respect. You should act as if she’s invited you into her house for tea and crumpets by allowing you the space to post (puke?) in her blog.
Chtistopher
“This is a propaganda site, Charles”
Agree some of CMARII and Charles comments do sound as pure pro-war propaganda. But nevertheless they have their right to say things too. The fact is this pro war propaganda is not working anymore, people have seen thru it. It can be redraped with better clever words but the content is the same and many people know that now.
“But the current situation is that Saddam is gone, Iraqis want the US out, the US has no right to impose it’s will over another sovereign nation and the polite thing would be to get out. Let them work it out for themselves.”
Thank you Jon, you have summoned it up perfectly.
Yesterday was interesting, if you like that kind of thing, I wasted a great deal of it trying patiently to explain to Charles that the invasion of Iraq was all about oil, only to be met with a blank denial and disregard for the facts. Interestingly he’s unable to come up with an alternative theory why the USA has already spent $800 per man, woman and child in Iraq if it’s not for the oil.
Then there was the aptly named “moron” who tried to tell us that there was no attempt by the US Government to persuade the people that Iraq had WMD, although in fact linking Iraq to WMD still continues to this day.
So what can we conclude from this? I think it’s quite obvious that many of the right wing Americans currently polluting this blog have no intention whatsoever to be honest and just wish to continue spouting the same old tired pathetic propaganda, talk about Nero fiddling while Rome is burning. I have to say it’s not without humour. :)
Chtistopher wrote “but I feel that any tactic is suitable in this kind of guerilla cyber war and with Hitch on this subject.”
Well that explains it right there, not much point in taking anything they write seriously
Actually Jon, I invite her into MY house where SHE pukes on my screen. “She” is as far as one can infer from the evidence a political hack probably in the pay of the propaganda department of some tin-pot autoctratic govenment or ditto political party (either black or red fascist). I suspect that she has a thick black moustache and sometimes calls herself “Michael” who is the other regular nihilist who posts on the rapidly changing but constantly simple-monded anti-American themes here. How about your views on genital mutilation in the Middle Eastern countries who, by implication, are so much more civilised than the United States, Ladybird? Do you ever think outside the box? How about a thread inviting comments on how the tenth anniversary of the execution in Cairo of the pig Sayyid Qutb as a little variety from your monotone plaint of “Down with America”? That scum’s ideas can be trtaced back to amajor cause for the USA having to come to the rescue of Iraq.
Michael, I would not expect you to try to wrestle with anything more demanding that Ladybird’s anti-American slogans.Why not for a change take a look at the vile fascist traditions in Mohammed’s kooky religion just as an intellectual exercise to cut your teeth on and to see if just possibly there might be some other element in the Middle East othere than the Americans for all the suffering and backward chaos there — surely you find your anti-American diatribes a little boring, even to yourself?
Another one high on some illegal substance. Best stick to “Looney Tunes” Hal. :)
Listen up, You Christo-Fascist bullies … it’s high time somebody called you out
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=45684
“If he [Hugo Chávez] thinks we’re trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It’s a whole lot cheaper than starting a war. And I don’t think any oil shipments will stop.” — Pat Robertson
“Muslims want to rule the world. They want to take over the whole world. That’s their evil purpose … of them are very harsh. There’s no tenderness or love.” [Where do you get your information about the war?]
“The Bible and the 700 Club. I also listen to preachers who know what’s going on. Pat Robertson.” — Mary Fowler, 54, Oklahoma Housekeeper, excerpted from Rose Aguila’s “Stories in America”
Listen up, Reverend Robertson, Mary Fowler — every last one of you Apostles of Perpetual Psychosis — it’s time that you were called out.
Cyrano’s Journal Online contributing editor Phil Rockstroh writes: The time is long past due the rest of us ceased our cowering and stood up to you Christo-fascists bullies.
The hour has come round that we look you straight in your bulging, true believer eyes, and told you that we’ve had it with your smugness, with your blood-drenched crusades, with your victim mentality — and wit the madness begot by this cracked-brain belief system of yours, which all began (according to your sacred delusions) more than two thousand years ago, when, at the behest of a wicked cabal, a mob of mammon-worshipping, blood-lusting rabble went on a cosmic killing-spree and murdered your god.
First off, let’s get one thing straight: No one ever killed anyone’s god (not Jews, nor Romans, nor Geeks playing Dungeons and Dragons) — although it’s time somebody nailed you, you collection of conflated failures at Christian martyrdom, to a metaphysical cross of reality.
It’s high time someone told you outright that you must be suffering from holy water on the brain, if you think we can’t see you for what you are: a klavern of counterfeit prophets waxing psychotic for other cretinous hypocrites.
Also, you can cease playing the persecuted party, whenever someone stands up to you — because we’re no longer buying that ploy.
Remember, you’re the ones who threw the first, epitaphic stones. It was you who labeled us a mob of Hell-bound, Satan-pimping sodomist … Although — as much fun as that sounds — I must ask you, where do you get the unmitigated gall to make such insane claims? When did the golden light of the sun abandon its position in the eastern horizon and begin rising, each morning, from out of your silly, neo-Iron Ageasses?
And tell me this, you medievalist simps, you delusional, retrograde dip****s — how is it possible that you became privy to such timeless truths — that the mind of the “One True God” is available to you, and that God’s words and wishes resonate through yawning millennia to be understood only by you — and you alone?
Looking back on the rise of you Christo-fascist *******s, I’m mortified as to how it came to be socially and politically acceptable for you to bandy such vicious and demented assertions in the public arena, without them meeting with the derision they deserve … And don’t bother going into one of your pat victim-swoons over being called on it, because when you go so far as to claim that you alone have been bestowed with the secrets of boundless creation — and that anyone who chooses not to buy into your version of events will be condemned to the torments of eternal damnation — then you can bet your fatuous asses that your asinine assertions will be ridiculed. What in the blue blazes did you expect, for us simply to fall to our collective knees before you?
Yet, I fear that’s exactly what you expect from us.
Could I suggest an alternative idea? Would you simply let the rest of us be? Would it be possible for you to keep your life-defying delusions to yourself — keep them within the airless confines of your bigotry-riddled churches and the cramped quarters of your own minds?
If that’s the way you choose to spend the passing hours of this finite life, it’s fine by me. But when you start your habitual proselytizing, then you should be prepared to be told that a great many of us think your cosmological conceptions are a steaming pile of behemoth dung.
And, while we’re on the subject, for the longest time, I’ve been wanting to tell you this: If Jesus died for my pathetic sins — then he flat-out overreacted.
What makes this situation all the more unsettling is you believe these creepy, death-enamored myths are literally true. Instead, I suggest you try the following: Rather than attempting to commune with Jesus, the Virgin Mary, the Holy Ghost (or Casper the Friendly Ghost) or the Lucky Charms Leprechaun — why don’t you attempt to channel the departed spirits of Voltaire or H. L. Mencken? There will be no otherworldly conjuring (or con jobs) required to perform this miracle: simply go to the public library and check out their books.
Once there, you might want to stop by the science section, as well, where you could happen upon a few delusion-decimating tidbits such as the following: While your bible tells you that the earth is a shade over seven thousand years old, the actual figure is (approximately) 4.6 billion years. How do you account for the slight discrepancy of say … 4,599,993,000 years? And that number is derived when calculated against the approximated age of the earth — not that of the universe, which is estimated to be between ten to twenty billion years old.
You can do the math on that one, all you reality-challenged Children of the Lord.
And those aren’t the only things in your bible that just don’t add up. In your Book of Joshua (10:13) it is stated that God commanded the sun to stand still in the sky … Really now? Pardon me … but how is it possible that this omniscient god of yours, who you believe created the earth and heavens, all by his divine lonesome, didn’t realize the simple fact that the sun doesn’t revolve around the earth?
Furthermore, he was apparently ignorant of numerous smaller details as well, such as, wherein Matthew (13:32) he identified mustard seeds as “[…] the smallest of seeds.” How can it be that the creator of the universe could have had such an embarrassing lapse of basic knowledge on the subject of botany?
And what about the many other lapses in logic (flights of fantasy that are insane by any standard, with the exception of the sublime logic found in the idiom of cartoons) such as the one about the fellow who survived, for three days and three nights, in the stomach of a monstrous fish (Jonah 1:17) — and what was up with that wacky, talking donkey in Numbers (22:28)? We’re in Looney Tunes territory now, all you highly suggestible Idiots of God. Plus, in a cartoon universe, such as the one described in the Book of Exodus, why didn’t The All-Mighty, instead of leveling plagues and pestilence upon the guilty and innocent alike in Egypt, simply, drop an ACME anvil down from heaven on the head of Pharaoh and been done with it?
Which brings up the subject of the deplorable cruelty of your deity of choice. Ergo, isn’t this a lovely, little passage from Deuteronomy (32:23–25)? “I will spend mine arrows upon them … The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.”
Then there is this lovely bit of divinely inspired baby killing and faith-based rape from Isaiah (13:9,15–18): “Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger … Every one that is found shall be thrust through … Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes… and their wives ravished. Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them… [T]hey shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.”
Worse, your striving to make these pathological ravings manifest have resulted in tragic consequences. As is the case with your current, genocidal adventure in Iraq, where you believed the vengeful ghosts of the Crusades could be dispatched, dissolved in the beatific light flaring from the bombs that your holy (armchair) warrior, Commander and Chief ordered dropped from Kabul to Baghdad … In your madness, you believed you could make the citadels of the New Jerusalem manifest in Mesopotamia. Upon every bomb detonation, you were certain that the heathen hordes cowered before your righteous fury, that ghost and demon would flee back to Hell, and the wicked would trembled before your sacred fury. Now, of course, that all worked out just like you saw it in your head beforehand — didn’t it?
As we speak, your Armies of the Lord (who more closely reassemble a collection of economic conscripts) wince and stumble, blinded by blown blood and squalls of searing sand … The desert wind taunts you true believers; your visions of conquest evaporate, as the pitiless sun glares down upon the folly of yet another legion of hubristic Crusaders, who came to free the heathen hordes from their brutish ignorance — by way of relieving them of the confusing burden of their untapped wealth.
Of course, the only small recompense you ask from these monumental ingrates is unfettered access to their oil. And the only reason for that is: a purpose as exalted as yours requires a great amount of energy to sustain its radiant glory; such a selfless enterprise of holiness demands a few rewards for the long suffering Christian martyrs on the home front — because American’s God-kissed flocks of pious consumers must be permitted to sit, in perpetuity, high above the roadways of the land, serene within their over-sized pick-up trucks, SUVs, and RVs — their junk food-bloated countenances must never be darkened by want, doubt, nor self-reproach.
In accordance with this self-referential lunacy, you sermonized that Satan’s earthly emissaries, such as Hugo Chavez, should be righteously slaughtered — because he and his ilk scheme to deprive American drivers of their God-given right to the oil, which, inconveniently, happens to be located beneath lands belonging to inconsequential people.
Those brown-skin, oil hoarding wretches, down in Venezuela and their false idol-clutching counterparts in Iraq, Iran, and Syria, must be taught that God, seated upon his golden throne, scorns the sight of their iniquitous ways.
The Kingdom of the Lord stands before us, you proclaim … If we listen closely, we can hear the voice of God above as he counts his money. Furthermore, the era of George W. Bush has brought a new revelation: If America’s plutocratic class had even more blood money — then the Baby Jesus would smile.
The Reverend Pat Robertson, Mary Fowler — and every last one of you Apostles of Perpetual Psychosis — listen up. Given the self-evident fact that your beliefs bring little relief to your own troubled souls and have, on the whole, served to engender tragedy worldwide, don’t you think it’s time you gave it a rest for while. In other words, this is a polite way of suggesting to you that you shut your pie-in-the-sky hole and take stock of the things you’re saying — because your utterances are becoming sicker and sadder, by the hour.
If not, you could, at least, in the words, of Tom Waits, “Come down off the cross — we can use the wood.”
Nadia says:
So yes I acknowledge their legal right but I do not and will never use weapons to implement peace.
Ah, yes! YOU would never use weapons to implement peace. You will only cheer on the beasts who blow up cars in Iraqi streets and target civil servants, police, Iraqi security forces and their families. What about the Syrians, Jordanians, and Iraqnians coming into the country to fight the Infidel and kill Iraqis? Are their actions legal as well? Do you really believe that after the civil war starts when the Coalition cuts-and-runs, they will go home?
Don’t imagine that because you do your work from the sidelines, you have kept your hands clean from your guys’ activities. I’m proud to support what the Coalition forces, the Iraqi government, the Iraqi police, the Iraq security forces, and the employees of the Iraq water, power, and oil departments (who all risk their lives to do their jobs everyday) are attempting to do build a free, prosperous, and democratic Iraq. Unlike you, it doesn’t weigh on my conscience to stand with my chosen side.
You are welcome to your side, Nadia. I know my side will win.
Nadia, if the people of Iraq wish the MNF to leave, then they merely need to vote as such. In the new Iraq the opinion of each person is equal to that of every other. All opinions are counted as equal and tallied in the form of voting. If the majority of Iraqis agree with you then so too will the majority of MPs.
It is a new Iraq. The ability of the Sunni to dominate is over. ISF officers are beginning to emerge and the 170,000 disorganized troops are beginning to find their leaders. They have achieved critical mass and by mid-winter will be able to forcibly evict insurgent elements from any province or town. The choice for Sunni leaders is no longer whether or not they wish to rule Iraq. It is whether or not they wish to survive. The choice for you is whether or not to follow them.
You should read the constitution for yourself. Then compare it to the words of the insurgent leaders. They wish to incite fear and distrust where no basis exists. The constitution clearly states that no province may enact laws that violate the constitution. It clearly states that no act is a crime unless a law is passed and that no law may be passed without legislative approval. It places the rule of law above the will of cleric. It clearly states that oil revenue is a national asset and distribution is to be controlled from Bagdhad. It clearly states that the court system is independant, that the military is under civillian control, and that power shall be peacefully rotated every four years. The cries of AMS and others are falsehoods propagated to create fear and distrust. What is really and truly wrong with the constitution is that Iraq will never again have a dictator for so long as it remains in effect.
These Yanquis write like nothing is their fault. :)
Just to bring this one back to reality perhaps it’s time to remind him that not a single death would be occurring in Iraq right now if it hadn’t been for the illegal oil invasion.
The USA will and is being defeated in Iraq and the USA will also lose the economic war which they’ve brought down on their own heads, with far more serious consequences.
When that happens I feel Bush supporters are going to be hard to find . :)
“Nadia, if the people of Iraq wish the MNF to leave, then they merely need to vote as such.”
Yes right :) The USA must be pretty confidant they will not otherwise they wouldn’t have planned these long term military bases in Iraq, particularly around the oil installations.
It’s a bit like Poland asking the Germans to leave, the very thought is very funny.
That’s crap, Georgy, and you know it. It must really hurt you to realize that Democracy really is at work in Iraq, and that the Sunnis are beginning to understand that their only hope is through the ballot-box. I know our side is winning now, because you are beginning to bleat the same old “It was rigged!!! They CHEATED!!” stuff that I predicted you would use a couple of months ago.
Thank you for being so very predictable. We, that being the people who give 1/2 a shit about the Iraqi people are glad to see these accusations come out. It only proves that the Iraqi people really do understand the concept of Democracy, and that those others have admitted their defeat. It is not about whether or not THIS Constitution is accepted. It never HAS been about that. It is about all portions of the Iraqi populace buying in to the process. I’m sure you would rather use the term “co-opted”. Ok, if that makes you feel better, then I will admit that is exactly what I would have hoped for. Buying-in or being Co-opted, really just a matter of semantics. People realize that the Ballot-box is the only way to resolve diffeerences in Iraq, NOT through the AK, is a good thing no matter. Democracy, like Freedom of Speech goes both ways. One has to take the bad with the good, and just because you don’t like what is voted on, or said, you have to deal with it and make the best out of the situation.
Get used to it Georgy. Your hopes of the US being run out of Iraq on a rail, are being squashed by the Sunnis joining this process.
You know Michael, the ruling parties one of their aims in the elections was to demand the occupation troops to leave Iraq and starting with a set date. That made a lot of people vote for them.
But Jaafari et al are not fulfilling their election promise; they are doing exactly the opposite.
The future of Iraq; 18 student unions statement/petition for the occupation troops to leave Iraq was presented to the parlament which had people who fully agreed with them but the government did not listen. Amarah the town I lived in once, a month or so ago had 1 million signatures asking for the occupation troops to leave and set a date now; nobody listens.
Nadia we both know that the Americans are not going to leave even if asked politely. They haven’t spent $220 billion just to leave like good little lambs, they are there for the oil and will stay for the oil, until removed of course.
It’s interesting just how many simularilties there are between the illegal oil invasion of Iraq by the NewWorldNazis and what the oldworldnazis got up to.
1) One of the reasons Hitler gave for invading Poland/Czechoslovakia was that he was liberating a percentage of the population from oppression.
2) Hitler argued that the Government of Poland and Czechoslovakia were not democracies and that the German population of those countries did not have “self determination”.
3)Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia in particular to control the huge coal fields required for his war effort.
4) Germany completely ignored International Law as set by the League of Nations and continuously criticised their work and efforts to bring peace..
5) Hitler believed that if you continuously re-stated lies that eventually a high proportion of people would accept them as factual and even when proved so, some people would continue to state the lies for fear of appearing stupid.
6) Before invading Poland/Czechoslovakia Hitler used his overwhelming air power to destroy enemy tanks.
7) Hitler’s SS used illegal torture methods to interrogate the resistance.
8) The Germans held and killed hostages in retaliation to Germans being killed. But as far as I know never held children as hostages such as those held by the US Army in Iraq last week.
9) Hitler claimed that Poland had actually invaded Germany in the first instance and that they were a threat,
10) Hitler was willing to destroy entire towns/villages to suppress Resistance and also used what were considered illegal weapons.
Georgy, PLEASE. Ttop with the bold font. It in no way makes your words more powerful, meaningful, or more true than anyone else’s. Do us all a favor, and only highlight the words you want to emphasize. Otherwise you merely look like Kruschev pounding his shoe on the podium screaming “WE WILL BURY YOU!!!”.
It really has become quite boring reading your stuff, Georgy. It seems you and Nadia have developed your own little mutual-admiration society, but I have to admit that at least Nadia’s motivations are pure. She is a pacifist. I’m not, but at least I can understand her. Yours have always been that you want the US to get some sort of come-uppance in Iraq.
It wouldn’t matter to you if well over 65% of Iraqis voted on this Constitution, you would still contend that the US somehow “FIXED” it. As I said in a previous post, I’m glad you have begun to wail out these accusations. It only indicates that even YOU know the so-called Resistance is basically over. Now all there is left is to drive out the Jihadis. Wait, though, I guess THEY are the only “LOYAL” Iraqis left. No, wait. They aren’t Iraqis. Nevermind. THEY CHEATED!!!! BUSH LIED!!!! OIL, OIL, OIL!!!!! NO FAIR!!! How’s that? I have summed up your entire arguement in less than one line. I even added a bunch of !‘s to fill up the basic void of your drone.
David perhaps I should start calling you “Tokyo Rose”. I see this constitution as being totally irrelevant. There needs to be elections that true but those cannot be carried out under the control of an occupying power. USA out first, UN in and then it will be time for elections.
US casualities are far higher than being reported by the controlled US media, but here’s one that managed to get though.
Insurgency concentrated in areas along Euphrates River
http://news.yahoo.com/s/krwashbureau/20050825/ts_
krwashbureau/_bc_usiraq_battleground_wa&printer=1;_ylt=Ak0vZJj.9BslgJSR
8xesyaXF_8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE–
By Tom Lasseter, Thu Aug 25, 6:03 PM ET
RAMADI, Iraq — Iraq’s insurgency has concentrated much of its fight against U.S. and Iraqi forces in towns along the murky waters of the Euphrates River, beginning with Qaim on the Syrian border and running through towns such as Haditha, Haqlaniya, Hit, Ramadi and Fallujah. They’re all in Anbar province, the heartland of Iraq’s Sunni Muslim minority, which dominated the government under Saddam Hussein.
In the cities where U.S. forces have set up bases — such as Ramadi and Fallujah — the fighting has destroyed much of the infrastructure but failed to completely secure the areas. In smaller towns, American forces launch repeated raids to clear the streets of insurgents only to see them return as soon as the Marines and soldiers are gone.
Three weeks of reporting embedded with American troops in Anbar’s main centers of guerrilla resistance found that U.S. forces are failing to make headway, and some commanders fear that much of the military effort is wasted.
“It doesn’t do much good to push them out of these areas only to let them go back to areas we’ve already cleared,” said Lt. Col. Tim Mundy, who commands the 3rd Battalion of the 2nd Marine Regiment. Mundy, 40, of Waynesville, N.C., whose battalion is based in Qaim, added: “We’re successful at taking some of his equipment and killing some insurgents, but the effectiveness is limited because we can’t stay … we go back to camp and then we get reports that they’ve come back in.”
- In Fallujah, a city that Marines and soldiers retook from insurgents last November in the heaviest urban combat since Vietnam, fighters have begun to return and renew their intimidation campaign.
“As we all know, we have mujahedeen operating in small squads throughout the city,” Marine Sgt. Manuel Franquez said before leading a patrol in Fallujah last week, using an Arabic term that means “holy warrior.”
On the city streets, Franquez’s men passed just north of where a suicide car bomber had killed five Marines, including four women, in late June. Scorch marks still blacken the pavement.
Guerrilla fighters have blown up one police station under construction twice and kidnapped and executed a contractor who was involved in the project. At two other unfinished police stations, concertina wire and a series of observation posts manned by Iraqi soldiers with AK-47s protect the bricks.
A series of checkpoints locked down the city after November’s assault. Military officials called it the safest city in Iraq. Now the area is attacked four to nine times each day, including by roadside bombs, rocket-propelled grenades and sniper fire. Car bombs average two a week.
- Ramadi, the provincial capital, had a functioning downtown corridor two years ago, where parents walked with children and ate lunch at tables outside kabob shops. Today, the street is pocked with holes from bombs intended for U.S. convoys, storefronts are ripped by shrapnel, bullet holes tattoo walls, buildings have been blown to rubble by American missile strikes and insurgent mortar volleys, and roofs are caved in by U.S. bombing. At the main base in Ramadi, American artillery booms every night, sending more shells to pound insurgent positions in and around the city.
Insurgents attack about 77 times a day in Iraq, according to Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch, the top military spokesman in Iraq. In the Ramadi area alone, which has about 400,000 people, there are eight to 10 attacks daily, according to the office of Col. John Gronski, 49, of Moosic, Pa., who commands the Army task force that’s responsible for Ramadi.
Guerrilla fighters have badly damaged or destroyed eight of 10 police stations. The police force there has been scrapped and is being rebuilt.
Col. Regis Cardiff, the deputy commanding officer of the U.S. Army task force that’s responsible for Ramadi, the 28th Infantry Division, rode through downtown recently.
The last time he’d left the base, a roadside bomb hit his convoy. A week earlier, an insurgent’s 82 mm mortar round crashed into the chow hall where he eats.
Watching the streetscape pass by, Cardiff muttered, “the wild, wild west.”
“You hate to see anything like that. I’m sure this was a pretty city at one time,” said Cardiff, who’s from Pittsburgh. He acknowledged that if the fighting continues he’s not sure whether a downtown will be left.
- In western Anbar, Marines have made a series of quick raids on towns including Karabilah, Haditha and Haqlaniya. But as soon as the Marines leave, typically after about a week sweeping through houses, the insurgents filter back in and set up base again, military officials said.
“If you go to an area and you don’t stay in that area, the insurgency will return to that area and intimidate the local population,” said Lt. Col Lionel Urquhart, who commands the 3rd Battalion of the 25th Marine Regiment.
Urquhart said he didn’t have enough men to maintain a permanent presence in places such as Haditha.
“You’re going to have this constant need to go back in and clean it up again … we have to go back in and make it clear to everybody that the insurgency does not control this country,” said Urquhart, 44, of Akron, Ohio. “Is that a good way of doing business? I’m not going to say that.”
When Marines re-entered Haqlaniya during a recent operation, virtually every downtown storefront had pro-jihad messages spray-painted on it: “Allah is our God, Jihad is our way”; “Long live the mujahedeen”; “Long live jihad”; “It is your duty to fight for jihad in Iraq”; “Death to those who collaborate with Americans.”
North of Ramadi, Marines launched a major operation, dubbed New Market, to clean up Haditha earlier this year. The area has since returned to lawlessness, military officials said. Earlier this month, 20 Marines were killed just south of Haditha in an ambush and a roadside bombing.
Since March, insurgents have killed or wounded more than a third of the men in the two companies in Urquhart’s battalion that have been his main fighting forces for the past half-year. Lima Company, with 156 men, has had 22 killed in action and 31 wounded. Kilo Company, with about 150 men, has had four killed and at least 50 wounded.
Many of the injuries have been serious: Only 47 of the 98 wounded men in Urquhart’s battalion have returned to duty.
Down the Euphrates River from Urquhart, Army Sgt. 1st Class Tom Coffey commands a platoon from the Army’s 28th Infantry Division along Ramadi’s southern border. His men are hit by roadside bombs almost every day.
“There’s no way I can control this area with the men I have,” Coffey, 37, of Burlington, Vt., said in a recent interview. “The reports are that the insurgents are using these southern control points because they’re open. We can’t keep them closed because I don’t have the manpower.”
He said that in the previous week a sniper had shot an Iraqi soldier working with his company in the face and killed him. Snipers also shot two American soldiers, one through the hand and the other through the hand and gut.
A few minutes later Coffey’s radio squawked. A rocket-propelled grenade had hit one of his Bradley Fighting Vehicles. Rushing to the scene, he found the driver and crew safe, but one of the soldiers in the vehicle looked at Coffey with large eyes and said, “I hate being up here by my f—— self.” Without another Bradley or Humvee close by, it’s easy for insurgents to pop up from behind, Coffey said.
“I know there’re caches and bad guys out there,” said Coffey’s commander, Maj. Jason Pelletier, 32, of Milton, Vt. “And they know that I don’t have the manpower to get out there. You don’t have to be that smart to realize that.”
DaKruser, from your own words you are not a defender of democracy or free speach in Iraq. You want to hear only one opinion and that is the one that you have. That is what Saddam did too, allowing only one opinion to be the right one.
The ruling parties in the Iraqi government one of their aims in the elections was to demand the occupation troops to leave Iraq and starting with a set date. That made a lot of people vote for them.
But Jaafari et al are not fulfilling their election promise; they are doing exactly the opposite.
The future of Iraq; 18 student unions statement/petition for the occupation troops to leave Iraq was presented to the parlament which had people who fully agreed with them but the government did not listen. Amarah the town I lived in once, a month or so ago had 1 million signatures asking for the occupation troops to leave and set a date now; nobody listens.
George,
Name me ONE time in ONE PLACE that the UN managed to accomplish what you say they can do here.
If you can, then I might agree with you. Wait, the “Resistance” BLEW UP the HQ of the UN in Baghdad during the early days after the war because the UN is “The US PUPPET”. Then, the UN cut and run. Hasn’t really been back since.
I’m certain that a few well-placed “safe-areas” will suit the bill. Then we won’t have to search for the mass-graves any longer. It’ll be like Halabja.
Well here’s just a few covering the years 1961/5 , there are lots of others either before or afterwards but it just proves how stupid your comments are David.
Settlement of major international disputes, including the transfer of Netherlands New Guinea (now Papua and West Irian Jaya) to Indonesia (1962); the removal of Soviet missiles from Cuba (1962); the resolution of the civil war in the Congo in 1963; the establishment of a peacekeeping force on Cyprus (1964); and the achievement of a cease-fire in the 1965 India-Pakistan War.
David “Then we won’t have to search for the mass-graves any longer.”
I’m afraid someone will have to because I don’t think the USA has been keeping records. Falluja might be a good place to start with.
Michael you have fallen into a trap and you encourage others to join you. The deep fallacy of your assertions is that the US never had any intention of subjugating Iraq. Which is why they never did and never will. The intent is that Iraqis form a government of their own choosing through the willing consent of her people.
No amount of deflection and deception will obscure the fact that government by dialougue is better than government by oppression. Your propaganda has completely failed to disguise the illegimitacy of your goals.
The deep fallacy of your assertions is that the US never had any intention of subjugating Iraq.
Apart from the fact it’s not a fallacy, the USA has only one interest in being in Iraq and that’s the oil. It was from day 1 and they will continue to have hopes of that even up to the day they are forced out. “Democracy & Constitutions are just a diversion, a side issue, simply there to try and legitimise what is , and will remain so, a serious break of International Law combined with numerous contraventions of the Geneva Convention.
The USA is quite happy to see Iraqis kill Iraqis, it saves them buying their own bullets.
Nice list Georgy,
Let’s us examine it, shall we?
1) Papua is a nice try, but the Netherlands was looking to get rid of the Colony anyway, and Indonesia paid a pretty good sum for it. I guess this one might be the example, but the two Nations would probably have gotten together anyway, and there was no extant violence. That certainly doesnt’ describe present day Iraq.
2) The removal of the Soviet Missles was one more instance where the UN really was just co-opted by the two Super-powers to avert what otherwise would have devolved into a nuclear holocaust. Both Nations knew they had gone too far, but were unwilling to pull back unilaterally, so they “allowed” the UN to dictate the terms of the Soviet pull-out, and the end of the US blockade. This really wasn’t a good example of what you claim they can/could do in Iraq.
3) Congo in ’63? That was a success?? What is the name of that nation now? Is it Zaire? or The Congo? or the Democratic Peoples’ Republic? Or is it something else today? That is NOT a good example of an end to conflict, Georgy. That Nation has the equivelant in Natural Resources to Iraq (that being Diamonds vs Oil) and they STILL can’t crawl their way out of Civil War and Poverty.
You talk about MY lack of knowledge and you pull THIS lion out of your hat? Wait, that was supposed to be a rabbit, right?
4) Peace-keeping in Cyprus was demanded by NATO of two NATO member Nations (that being Greece, and Turkey). That island is STILL two seperate 1/2’s after what? 30 years now? And you are afraid the Iraqi Constitution will divide up Iraq? Cyprus sure isn’t a unified place, and probably never will be.
5) Paki/India War?? CEASEFIRE??? Oh MY GOD, Georgy. you just told everybody on this blog why the UN CAN“T do what you say they can. That particular “Cease-fire” has been in effect for what? 40 years? but just last year they were on the brink of a nuclear volleyball match. There is no peace there! Kashmir is STILL on fire, the Hindus and Moslems still drive around and chop each other up regularly. If THAT is your vision of Iraq in 40 years, then the US had BETTER stay.
Let me see, I can come up with some better ones than your examples, Korea in the ’50’s (Still in a state of war). Suez, now that was a good one, there is nothing but peace around that place. Rwanda, Lesotho, Timor, Liberia, Mozambique, Angola, Republic of Congo (where the French Foreign Legion is busy supporting the local economy through Child-porn and Prostitution), Darfur in Sudan, Bosnia, ALL THOSE PLACES ARE SAFE AND SECURE now that the UN has acted as peace-keepers, right?
Don’t try to intimidate me with name-calling Georgy. It won’t work when I’m right and you aren’t.
Trying to re-write history David merely highlights your stupidity. I hope you didn’t waste too much time researching your excuses.
Certainly some organisation is going to have to clear up the mess the uSA has created in Iraq and the UN is perfect for that based on the numerous successes they’ve had since their inauguration. While the USA remains in Iraq in the hope of getting oil production up to par, the situation will simply get worse.
These Yanquis write like nothing is their fault.
Just to bring this one back to reality perhaps it’s time to remind him that not a single death would be occurring in Iraq right now if it hadn’t been for the illegal oil invasion.
(George) Michael,
As if one needed further confirmation that you are a fool, this one takes the cake. Which illegal oil invasion are you talking about? The one in 1991 (the same thing was said then), or the one in 2003? Which of the 300K+ bodies in the mass graves was put there by the Coalition?
What about the innocents Zarqawi had killed (remember his organization was being harbored by Saddam) before 2003? Did he do those for a love of Iraq?
The people killing Iraqis now would be killing Afghanis if the Coalition had not removed Saddam. And if the Taliban had not been removed, they would be killing people all over the world. Here’s a good post by an Iraqi in Baghdad that says it as well I as ever could.
Go have all the wet dreams about Saddam as want. Put up your posters of the mujahadeen assassinating water ministry workers. Then go shuffle into the dustbin of history with your heroes. Yours too Nadia.
Re-write history?
H mmmm.…not! Every one of the items I quoted is fact, not fiction. Hurts that I didn’t even have to do any research to debunk your list, eh?
You still havent’ touched on the assassination of the UN’s top negotiator by the “Fabled Resistance”. The UN can’t keep peace anywhere. I’ve WORN that silly blue helmet. All it is is a good target. You can’t argue with the truth, Georgy. The UN is useless in situations like Iraq, where the will and ability to make violence is not just possible, but the first choice of reaction.
As if one needed further confirmation that you are a fool, this one takes the cake. Which illegal oil invasion are you talking about? The one in 1991 (the same thing was said then), or the one in 2003? Which of the 300K+ bodies in the mass graves was put there by the Coalition?
The one in 1991 was taken care of by a UN Resolution authorising force. The one in 2003 was not authorised by a UN Resolution and is therefore illegal. It’s a simple point but presumably still beyond your poers of understanding. And you call me a fool :)
I hate to break this to you but mass graves have not been found for 300,000 or the more regularly wrongly quoted 400,000, both of which are fabrications by the same people that gave us WMD and links with terrorism. Of course people like you still want to keep turning out the same tired old crap, unwillingly to admit your own stupidity. The only mass graves I expect in Iraq are from Powell’s “turkey shoot” and the current genocide taking place now with over 123,000 casualties. The 500,000 Iraqi children murdered by sanctions which the US refused to withdraw are probably in the main buried separately.
Even Blair admitted as such.http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1263830,00.html
PM admits graves claim ‘untrue’
Peter Beaumont, foreign affairs editor
Sunday July 18, 2004
The Observer
Downing Street has admitted to The Observer that repeated claims by Tony Blair that ‘400,000 bodies had been found in Iraqi mass graves’ is untrue, and only about 5,000 corpses have so far been uncovered.
What about the innocents Zarqawi had killed (remember his organization was being harbored by Saddam) before 2003? Did he do those for a love of Iraq?
Are they the fault of Iraq is the more important question? But in any case they are insignificant in relation to the number of deaths caused by the USA.
The people killing Iraqis now would be killing Afghanis if the Coalition had not removed Saddam. And if the Taliban had not been removed, they would be killing people all over the world. Here’s a good post by an Iraqi in Baghdad that says it as well I as ever could.
That’s nonsense and you know it. There were be no deaths apart from natural right now in Iraq if the illegal invasion hadn’t taken place. How many more stupid comments can you come up with?
H mmmm….not! Every one of the items I quoted is fact, not fiction. Hurts that I didn’t even have to do any research to debunk your list, eh?
They are your interpretation of the facts David and as I know from experience your view of reality is light years away from the truth.
Yes of course you have David, just like you were in the US Army at USAF Lakenheath.
Tell us, George, Omnicient one,
What makes you the font of knowledge on all things? You make up crap like that list of UN accomplishments, then accuse me of “re-writing History” because I debunked your assertions inside of a few minutes. You post innumerable articles which agree with your assertions and treat them like some sort of Gospel, but claim that any that disagree with your point of view are lies or propaganda. You call others fools, and use dark sarcasm to intimidate any who would stand against you, and then when a question of import is asked, you simply “beg that question” and divert attention somewhere else. Anyone who has any ability to read analytically recognizes this tactic, yet we continually allow you to steer this conversation as you will.
LadyBird has been kind enough to give us at least 2 of the last 3 topics that have been of more “everybody should be able to cheer this” type and you are mute on both. So am I to this point, but I thank LadyBird here for trying to turn down the heat on this cauldron.
Give it a break, George. Even when you get the chance to divert attention to what you choose, you can not support your views. It is really quite simple why that happens. You are wrong on a BUNCH of things, well, actually I should say MOST things. Do us all a favor. Give it a rest, will you?
I’ve had a lot of experience dealing with dumb Yanks, had you forgotten? It’s unlikely you even knew where Papua New Guinea and the Congo are without looking it up. I took my quotes about the UN achievements from a Winpekia history site concerning U Thant, but you think you know better it seems. :)
If you think I’m going to leave you a clear playing field to continue to spout your lies and fallacies you have another think coming. As for the rest of the goons you seem to have attracted here, well they seem as equally stupid as yourself.
Ok, Genious,
I would have THOUGHT you could have researched this for yourself, BUT since you clearly have a lacking for investigative skills, I will tell you why I was at Lackenheath. Try this one in your Wikipedia.…173’rd Airborne Brigade/Vicenza…REGULARLY sends Linguists (of BOTH the 98G and 97E variety) to Lakenheath for duel training with the Brit SAS in the Midlands. Those individuals are placed under the OPCON of the AirForce Cmd at Lakenheath.
Now, when it comes to “Stupidity”, or using the whole Lakenheath thing, take better care about what you know or don’t.
Lackenheath? Yes but not at the time you could have been in the US Army, because at that time you were still polluting blogs and writing crap. In fact I doubt that you have been in the Army at all.
You seem to have all these delusions of grandeur, perhaps you can let us know when you did a moon walk? :) Mmy guess is that you are an unemployed waster unable to find a job.
OH, and concerning the Historic accuracy of your examples, I’m not denying that the UN was involved in any of them. Their cumulative failures surely show that the UN should not concider them to be outstanding achievements. I merely debunked them as examples of why they would/would not work as evidence of UN’s ability in Iraq. Don’t try to skew the arguement by attacking me instead of my information.
As for knowing where Papua/New Guinea is, yeah, I know. I’ve been there, and to East Timor too. Do ya know where that is right off the top of your head?
I’ll give you a couple of minutes to look it up. Try Wikipedia, or MapQuest.com. They have LOTS of good information there.
Thanks for at least accepting the term DELUSION instead of your usual ILLUSION. I might point out that I made that distinction the first time you used the incorrect term.
OH, and concerning the Historic accuracy of your examples, I’m not denying that the UN was involved in any of them. Their cumulative failures surely show that the UN should not concider them to be outstanding achievements. I merely debunked them as examples of why they would/would not work as evidence of UN’s ability in Iraq.
The fact remains David that while the USA remains in Iraq peace cannot be restored. Without doubt the US being replaced by the uN would be the first step in returning Iraq to normality.
As for knowing where Papua/New Guinea is, yeah, I know. I’ve been there, and to East Timor too.
Yes of course you have David :)
Do ya know where that is right off the top of your head?
I’ll give you a couple of minutes to look it up. Try Wikipedia, or MapQuest.com. They have LOTS of good information there.
I don’t need to do that, I’m not an American. :)
Thanks for at least accepting the term DELUSION instead of your usual ILLUSION. I might point out that I made that distinction the first time you used the incorrect term.
Fascinating.
Nice pictures on TV from LA today, it looks totally flattened like Falluja.
How many cities in Europe were flattened in WWII? No, wait, that was a “Justified” war, right? So, the people in French cities like Cologne didn’t feel any loss, right?
My name is not David, and I HAVE been to Lakenheath AND East Timor. Is your house of cards coming down yet, Georgy? It should feel that way, because one of your most basic assumptions has made an ass of you. My name is Craig, not David.
By the UK and USSR with the slight assistance of the USA it was justified. But it wasn’t justified on the part of Germany.
So, the people in French cities like Cologne didn’t feel any loss, right?
Sorry I’m missing your point here David.
My name is not David, and I HAVE been to Lakenheath AND East Timor. Is your house of cards coming down yet, Georgy? It should feel that way, because one of your most basic assumptions has made an ass of you. My name is Craig, not David.
David I know it’s David, I also know you’ve never been to Lakenheath and I suspect your claim of having visited the East Indies to be also false. You are a dreamer David, living in cloud cuckoo land and it’s probably unlikely that you even have any consciousness yourself between your dream world and what is reality.