—-Update—
The earlier report said that British military negotiated the release of the two British prisoners peacefully but now they admit of smashing the jail wall.
The British Defence Ministry has admitted troops used an armoured vehicle to smash down a prison wall in a bid to free two undercover soldiers in southern Iraq overnight.
source here
Report from Iraqi police says that 150 Iraqi prisoners also freed as a consequences of smashing the jail wall. the photo above is the civil car they used to travel around Basra, the car was packed with explosives and they opened fire on the police. report from Basra says that the explosives were ready to be implemented near “Imam Ali steps” Shite mosque in Basra.
—End Update—
More confirmation to my conspiracy theory below
Monday’s clashes stemmed from the arrest by Iraqi police on Sunday of two British soldiers, whom Iraqi police accused of planting bombs. Iraqi officials described the two as undercover soldiers dressed in civilian clothes and said a shooting incident broke out when police stopped their civilian vehicle.
Source here
I hope people now realize who is behind the bombings in Iraq.
Michael fails to note that the ‘policemen’ who approached them were also plain clothes.
That sounds reasonable. In the middle of a bloody gunfight the Iraqi police try to arrest the SAS soldiers. “Ooooooh, you mean you wanted to arrest me! Sorry about that, I misunderstood. Stop shooting for a moment while I raise my hands.”
Pitched battle? Did the Brits fire back? Must have been quite a battle. I’d say the brits showed restraint. There were kids all over (as seen from pics).
Let’s put it like this. I come from South Africa. During the Apartheid years, blacks were slaughtering each other at a rapid pace through factional fighting, allowing the government to retain control because the attention of the black movements were largely directed at suppressing each other. After the Truth Commission, it turned out that the factional fighting was largely stoked by the “third force” — ie — secret government operatives staging incidents that got the IFP and ANC (local parties) all riled up at each other. It worked in South Africa and I’ve no doubt that it could be done in Iraq. The model is there. The question is : Is it being implemented?
Click Here
Jeff,
I read your link. I notice “South Africa remains one of the world’s most crime-ridden societies, a legacy of years of violent suppression during the apartheid era.”
May I ask Bruno: why is it always someone else’s fault?
It seems that just as with the murder of a Brazilian in London, the British are not in the first instance telling the truth about this matter. Their vehicle did carry explosives and they were still in the hands of the Iraqi police when the jail break took place and not in the hands of “militants“
Iraqi police protest after British raid in Basra
Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:41 PM BST
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005–09-21T124043Z_01_HO032036_RTRUKOC_0_UK-IRAQ.xml
By Alaa Habib
BASRA, Iraq (Reuters) — Iraqi police staged an angry anti-British protest in Basra on Wednesday as London and Baghdad sought to quell tension over a British raid to free soldiers held by militiamen in the southern city.
About 200 policemen who work at the police station damaged during the British raid marched through the streets, calling for the city police chief to be fired and for the “British terrorists” to be returned to Iraqi jurisdiction.
The Iraqi government said in a statement there was no crisis with Britain, but senior Iraqi officials have castigated the raid, with Basra province governor calling it a “barbaric act”.
“Both governments are in close contact, and an inquiry will be conducted by the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior into the incident,” a statement from Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari’s office said. It also urged calm on all sides.
Jaafari, returning from New York, was due to meet Defence Secretary John Reid in London at around 1300 GMT (2:00 p.m. British time).
Reid, under pressure at home over the deployment of 8,500 troops in Iraq and facing calls for a withdrawal timetable, told a British newspaper Britain would not “cut and run”.
The diplomatic hitch follows a raid by British forces to free two undercover soldiers who were detained by Iraqi security forces in Basra following a firefight on Monday.
In the raid, British armoured vehicles crushed the walls of an Iraqi jail before troops rescued the men from a militia group said by the British to have gained custody of them from police.
But Iraq’s interior minister disputed the British military’s account. Bayan Jabor told the BBC the men had never left police custody or the jail in Basra and were not handed to militants.
Basra, a mainly Shi’ite Muslim city, has experienced a surge in militia activity over the past nine months, with armed Shi’ite factions vying for influence in the security forces and the local council.
The militias are also believed to have carried out attacks on British troops, three of whom have been killed by roadside bombs this month, and on journalists exposing their activities.
Iraqi authorities admitted that insurgents had infiltrated the police and other security forces in Basra and elsewhere.
“Our Iraqi security forces in general, and these in particular and in many parts of Iraq, I have to admit that they have been penetrated by some of the insurgents,” National Security Adviser Mowaffaq al-Rubaie told the BBC on Tuesday.
He said he did not know the extent of the infiltration, but said new procedures were in place to get rid of bad apples.
INFILTRATION
British commander Colonel Bill Dunham, chief of staff for multinational forces in Basra, also pointed to security force infiltration as a major problem. “It is something that affects the Iraqi police across Iraq as a whole,” he told BBC Radio.
“We are aware of rogue elements in the Iraqi police service. The trick that we have to pull off now with the Iraqi authorities is to identify those elements, to weed them out and to reinforce the good parts of the Iraqi police service.”
Britain has spent the past 2–1/2 years securing Basra and building up its security forces in the expectation that Iraqi forces could take over and allow British troops to withdraw.
The acknowledgement that more than two years’ work has essentially failed to produce a functioning police force is likely to provoke anger among Iraqis, whose chief concern has always been security and who want foreign troops to leave.
May I ask Bruno: why is it always someone else’s fault?
Notice it says “one of the world’s most crime ridden societies” The USA certainly tops the league in gun crime and I suspect most other crimes. But in any case South Africa hasn’t invaded another country, killed 128,000 people, just for the sake of oil.
mmmm…interesting thought, of course there’s a hell of alot more people in the US than S. Africa…Here’s something for you to think about…
Who created/formed S. Africa?
and since we’re on the subject of white people oppressing blacks… ;-)
Click Here…
When is Michael going to show his hand and tell us what he believes in? What’s your solution to the problems of the Middle East, laddy? Apart from “US Stay Out” that is?
an excellent blog an dgoor article. the arrest of uk soldiers planting bo,bs in ira qand getting caught red handed i sall the proof that is needed for even the thickest american and uk citizen. the rest of the world now has prove and beleives now what the arabs and iraqis knew that all the murder, bombs and mass bombings were carried out by the uk an dus forces. such evil acts. there is a phrase in the bible which goes sumthing lik e“they say we are the peacemakers and helpers but they are really the ones that are causing the problems. truly they are wrong and evil.”. good work. keep it up
i also have read articles from good sources and from papers in iraq and other middle east papers that these bombs are planted by the u.s forces. sunni drivers are stoped by u.s forces and asked to report to the u.s forces for interogations and then telling the iraqis sunni drivers to pick the licence at a local police station which is manned by shia’s.. the driver notices his car is heavy and checks in the back os the spare tyre that it is filled with high c4 explosives by the americans.the sunni driver is traveling to the shia manned police station and as soon as he approaches to collect his drivers licence his car exlodes killing all the shia police officers. the car is denonated by a remote trigger from an american apache helicopter which followed the sunni driver from the americans head quarters. this explosion is then reported by the amerian media as sunni extremist blows him self up killing 50 shia police men. how evil is america eh ???
South Africa remains one of the world’s most crime-ridden societies, a legacy of years of violent suppression during the apartheid era
Interesting paranoid construction. During Apartheid, the black-on-black violence was due to Apartheid. A decade later, it still is. 1000 years from now, will South Africans learn to blame Apartheid for their problems as Arabs learn the Crusades are the root of theirs?
Here’s a question: Why then is it so hard to believe that violence Iraq today is a legacy of Saddam, the Ba’athists, the Arab nationalist governments, and centuries of Sunni Arab hegemony in the region?
hans sweden,
how evil is america eh ???
How evil must a mind be to devise such a paranoid construction out of whole cloth without any evidence? Were the terrorists that took over Tal Afar British soldiers in disguise? How did the US trick hapless Sunni Arabs into donning murder-suicide bomb vests?
i agree with the statement that the U.K & U.S are involved in planting bombs in iraq to forment further violence and to profit from all the chaos. CHECK THIS ARTCLE I FOUND. “”” http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7786.htm “””. The bush government and the neoconservatives who run america are the biggest threat to world peace. they need stopping
CMAII
How old are you? You do not have a mature logic of thinking.
I think you are a very young age.
TO … CMAR II
HOW CAN U BE SO THICK AND TO BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT IS BEING FED TO U BY THE U.K AND U.S FORCES. I HOUGHT NATURAL EVOLOUTION GOT RID OF THICK DUMB PEOPLE LIKE YOU. wHEN THE WORLD SAID THAT U.K AND U.S FORCES WERE KILLING PRISIONERS AND ABUSING THEM PEOPLE LIKE YOUR THICK SELF STATED NO. WE AMERICANS STATND FOR LIBERTY , FREEDOM AND RESPECT OF HUMAN LIFE AND ALL THAT RUBBISH THAT U LOT COME UP WITH AND THEN THET WORLD SAW AMERICAN SOILDERS, COMMANDERS AND OFFICERS ABUSING, KILLING AND TORTURING IRAQIS IN ABU GHARIB PRISON. SO EXPLAIN THAT MR AMERICA. SO SHUT UP “CMAR II” AND READ UP ON HISTORY AND FIND OUT WAT IS HAPPENNG IN THE WORLD U DUMB ASS
Hans and Rob,
If you bothered reading beyond the deliberately inflamatory initial reports, you would see that the Brits were not planning on bombing anyone. These clarifications have been issued yet our dear LB has not posted them here.
At ‘worst’ they were involved in undercover security ops (they are authorized by Iraqi government to enforce security), and when plain clothes Iraqi police/militia tried to stop them there was a case of ‘blue on blue(purple).’ That happens.
So stop it with the bomb stuff. That simply isn’t true.
The Iraqi government, by previous agreement and specific to this case, authorized the release of the Brits to the British forces in the area. The local police/militia refused. The Brits then acted to get their people back. As it turns out, they had been handed over to the militia. The Brits had just arrested several prominent militia people and so they wanted Brits as hostages for leverage.
It is truly disturbing to read the opinions of people from civilized democratic countries who believe that: the US planned/executed 911, the US is behind terror bombings in Iraq, etc.
Its one thing to disagree with the overthrow of a dictator like Saddam (how bloody civilized of you) and not lift a finger to help the democratically elected Iraqi government and the Iraqi people, but I find it shocking that you believe and propagate such paranoid, shallow, and illogical conspiracy theories.
cmar11. it is people like cmar11 who the bush govenment and the neoconservatives rely on to stay in power. poeple like cmar11 are naturally dumb with low inteligence . they dont have a facility in there brains which uses logic or th epower of deduction to reason. they dont relaize to check a story in depth. they are the parrots who repat what bush and company tell them. it is scary that americans have turned out hey way they have. the new facists and war mongers
LB,
I have often wondered the same about you. How could a mature adult, supposedly in search of the truth and supposedly interested in the welfare of Iraqis, post such obviously provocative rumors. I see no attempts on your part to differentiate between rumors and truth. Even when the rumors turn out to be false (what a surprise), time and again and again you continue with the same tactics.
Charles
Why don’t you let CMAII defend himself?.
Ladybird,
How old are you? You do not have a mature logic of thinking.
I think you are a very young age.
Since you offer no examples, Charles’s comment is really the only response I could offer myself. Except that I don’t think age has anything to do with your inability to distinguish reality from lurid paranoid fantasies (on the level of theories of how the Moon Landings were Hollywood concoctions).
It’s very clear that you are getting your view of Iraq from Iraqi Sunni Arabs who are having a difficult time adjusting to not having hegemony in their country anymore. It is not going to be easy to get used to being 20% in a democracy. But wacky fantasies about how the Coalition is stirring up chaos in Iraq in order to (what??? undermine support for the war in the U.S???) is not going to change that statistical fact.
This is especially silly because if the U.S. pulled up stakes in Iraq and went home tomorrow, you would claim that they were driven out by a homegrown insurgency.
P.S. Incidentally, I’m happier to have people like Charles “defending me” (although he didn’t mention me at all) than brain-trusts like elizabeth, maxine, Michael, and Jon whom you have on “your side”.
You do not have a mature logic of thinking.
I think you are a very young age. :) :)
So I am right about it :)
I’m pretty sure I’m older than you.
LB,
Cut to the chase. Stop with infantile distractions. If you want to discuss age do please tell us yours.
I am 37.
Your use of icons and lack of maturity (emotional and intellectual) lead me to believe you were a spoiled child and probably now in your mid-late teens. Maybe early 20s.
PS — I wasn’t defending anyone. I have wondered about your age for quite a while. You brought it up.
to cmar11 & charles. (low inteligent species)
you make it out to be a gang on this forum.i am.we are not with lady bird just to be against u 2. we ar erepresenting humanity unlike cmar11 and charles who are just warmongers who dont care how many people die in iraq or afghanistan as long as bush kills people . u 2 ar eseriously thos epeople in life who are leasly led like sheep. have u 2 not got any brains to think for your self. explain the murder, abuse and torture of iraqi people in abu gharib prison at the hands of your beloved american soldiers, officers and commanders. if that had not been exposed u wud still be defending t hem telling every one that americans do not do those things are we respect human life and freedom and all that crap u come with. now the world saw th eamerican way and the savages the american armed forces they really are u cannot defend them.. try and you will just look lik efool and dumb spiteful people u really are. u try defend amred american armed forces for the murders of iraqi prisoners then i will post the hundreds o f sickening piccs th eworld has as proof of torture, muder an abuse. so get a life u sad people and get some girlfriends.
Yes
I am a spoiled child.
CHARLES are u not gona defend the abu ghraib prisoner abuse of iraqis getting killed, abused sexually (very christian like)and nurder by american armed forces, soldiers, officers and commanders. please defend that as i wud like u 2 c you that. stop ignoring my demand by debating people ages. u know in your heaert that u cant. u cant say that peole are misunderstood or it is a conspiracy theory as the world has seen the “civilised christian” americans weith there handi work. pictures u[pon pictures of utter filth anf shocking pictures of americans spreading freedom and the american way. these new statements about american forces planting bombs and killing arabs in iraqill also be proved in time and when that happens u will looklike the dumb inbred that u and cmar11 are
Hans,
Funny how someone who pretends to care so much for humanity does nothing to oppose dictators. Saddam killed millions. Tens of thousands were tortured and murdered deliberately. Entire villages gassed. And you somehow find the time and energy to rant against the US? Bravo.
Regarding Abu Gharaib it was certainly blown out of proportion. Some sadistic soldiers went overboard. The pictures prove quite clearly that they had people undress, wear masks, and simulated electric shock, etc. I think one was bitten by a dog.
Brilliant Hans so quick with the insult, please tell me how many Iraqis were given electroshock torture at the hands of the americans?
Tell me how many were killed?
Raped?
Now compare that to Saddam.
And you are arguing that it would be better to have Saddam in power.
How bloody typical of a liberal. You find the worst extreme cases of US mistakes to prove your point, when in fact it proves mine. The US abuses were childsplay compared to Saddam. That does not excuse them for doing it. And it certainly does not excuse you for being so misguided as to prefer Saddam to a democratic Iraq.
Hans,
Is this some school project? Honestly, how old are you?
Most adults get married and have kids. I have 2 beautiful daughters. With your talk of ‘girlfriends’ — it implies you are an adolescent. You have an adolescent mind. I’m sure you will grow up someday.
Er, yes. Not using the King James version by the looks of it.
Better for you and the other the Ladymichaelists to heed Isaiah 5.20
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
rely to CHARLES…
You forget to mention that it was your american government who supported saddam and his regime back in th e 80’s and earny 90’s. It was the th eamrican government who supplied saddam with all th eweapons he needed to kill innocentpeople in his own country an din iraq. It was th eamerican government who gave saddam chemical and biological weapons. I am surprised but not shocked that you forget to mention this in your reply to hans. typical of americans to forget important things like supplying biological and chemical weapons to saddam ?!?!?!?
where were you charles when your government who is fighting for “freedom”, “liberty” and “humanity” was supplying chemicals which saddam used to gas the kurds. get your facts right mate.
ONE more thing i am not an american. god forbid. I am english an dlive in london. we have a free press and we get the inside story of what is happening in the world unlike the rubbish you americans are fed every day by CNN & FOX. And i am not a liberal. we in england are not liberals or republicans & all that crap. So dont fight back by calling me or hans or any other here who states facts in this forum “liberals”. we english and british get annoyed that you americans us eth ebritish to support your murderous crusades in the world. I can assure you that the british hate the bush government and as far as i know you americans are not on our favorite list of freinds. it has nothing to do with us being jealous but we hate your small mindedness and inward thinking mentality. SO DO ME A FAVOUR AND DONT PUT US BRITS ON YOU SIDE.
rely to CHARLES…
You forget to mention that it was your american government who supported saddam and his regime back in th e 80’s and earny 90’s. It was the th eamrican government who supplied saddam with all th eweapons he needed to kill innocentpeople in his own country an din iraq. It was th eamerican government who gave saddam chemical and biological weapons. I am surprised but not shocked that you forget to mention this in your reply to hans. typical of americans to forget important things like supplying biological and chemical weapons to saddam ?!?!?!?
where were you charles when your government who is fighting for “freedom”, “liberty” and “humanity” was supplying chemicals which saddam used to gas the kurds. get your facts right mate.
ONE more thing i am not an american. god forbid. I am english an dlive in london. we have a free press and we get the inside story of what is happening in the world unlike the rubbish you americans are fed every day by CNN & FOX. And i am not a liberal. we in england are not liberals or republicans & all that crap. So dont fight back by calling me or hans or any other here who states facts in this forum “liberals”. we english and british get annoyed that you americans use the british to support your murderous crusades in the world. I can assure you that the british hate the bush government and as far as i know you americans are not on our favorite list of freinds. it has nothing to do with us being jealous but we hate your small mindedness and inward thinking mentality. SO DO ME A FAVOUR AND DONT PUT US BRITS ON YOU SIDE.
steve london,
your american government who supported saddam and his regime back in th e 80’s and earny 90’s.
That’s right. The US was friendly with Saddam and the governments of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Baharain, etc. How is that relevant to whether to remove Saddam in 2003?
typical of americans to forget important things like supplying biological and chemical weapons to saddam
hmm…exactly how many ounces of biological and chemical weapons were supplied to Saddam by the US?
we have a free press and we get the inside story of what is happening in the world unlike the rubbish you americans are fed every day by CNN & FOX
Who told you that? The Sun?
SO DO ME A FAVOUR AND DONT PUT US BRITS ON YOU SIDE.
You’d better check your favorite newspaper, Steve, and find out who your troops are fighting with.
Steven London,
I am amazed at seemingly thoughtful people who regurgitate foul propaganda without so much as a hint of curiosity as to the truth.
Against whom? The mullahs of Iran who kidnapped our diplomats for over a year? Who threatened the entire gulf with their ‘devolution.’? What civilized (or even uncivilized) country didn’t?
You are worse than a fool Steve. Please provide me with a source that supports your position that the US government that provided Saddam with ‘all’ of his weapons.
Why don’t you and Hans visit this Swedish site to learn the truth.
There you will see that the US provided Saddam with about 1% of his weapons. Ask China, Russia, and France who ‘supported’ Saddam.
The american government DID NOT provide Saddam with chemical/bio weapons. Why does this keep getting repeated??? There were some fraudulent shipments of chemical precursers through fly-by-night companies who were eventually caught. The Iraqis only approached the US suppliers for such material after they had basically exhausted European and Asian suppliers. Any sales of chemical precursors to Saddam by US companies was done in violation of the law. This cannot be said forthe European and Asian countries who openly supplied Saddam.
There was also a US company that supplied biological samples to Saddam (and the rest of the friggin world you twit). This company supplies research institutes and universities and health organizations all over the world with samples for research. It turned out to be a stupid bloody move I agree.
I am surprised, and yes I am still shocked, that blubbering idiots continue parroting nonsense from unreliable sources and don’t even bother to research the matter themselves before leveling inane and insulting accusations at others. You have a right to be angry — but that anger should be directed at the people who filled your head with such nonsense, and at your own incredulous synapses.
You keep repeating the same nonsense. Our government did not supply Saddam with ANY chemical weapons. You need to bitch slap the person who told you that — or at least don’t be so damned stupid next time.
That is RICH — mate.
Nah — ‘Steve in London’? I never would have guessed. You are an horses arse sir.
You are so utterly deluded (although I agree in general with you about the MSM). What bloody ‘facts’ have you stated????
Funny how your government that you elected (and just re-elected) are the one’s who make British foreign policy decisions and not Bush. Do you realize how stupid you sound?
Believe you me — I’d be happy with one decent, well educated, and thoughtful Brit to 100 of whatever group of twits you represent. nay — 1000!
Civilization vs. the barbaric mob. You know those have been the typical odds throughout history. Your side always loses, then comes along for the ride to reap the benefits that men better than you have sacrificed to provide.
Cheers!
Thanks Hank.
If the twits started pulling even half their own weight, this world could become a veritable paradise.
Well, at least for a while.
No such luck.
LB seems to have some new linking system that bounces their nonsense all over the web sucking them in like flies to camel dung.
I’m currently mulling over a theory that might explain, at least partially, the predisposition of apparently healthy people to engage in irrational (or maybe pre-rational) ‘mobbing’ currently manifested worldwide as anti-americanism.
Now just having a predisposition is not enough, but it certainly provides fertile ground for anyone interested in manipulating this phenomenon for their own ends.
Consider for a moment the most primitive parts of the brain — the brain stem and cerebellum. These have evolved over literally hundreds of millions of years and provide any animal with its instinctual capabilities — fight/flight/etc. These are powerful forces that have helped animals to survive and evolve. They still exist, although they are more often than not rather dormant as higher brain functions hold the reigns.
So anywho, enter the US. Currently perceived as the dominant power on the planet — by far — economically, militarily, and culturally (or lack thereof: let’s all burn our Dave Brubeck records)). This is a massive sphere of influence that permeates much of the world. People can sense it. It is perceived as a threat. Perhaps not an overt threat, but yet it is there (in the absence of anything else). No longer do nations of Europe face mortal danger from the likes of the Soviet Union. And yet at the same time they no longer require the services of the US to protect them. This is a seachange.
The only one left standing is the US. Yet the cerebellum and brain stem need something to do — right? The brain doesn’t want complete atrophy of those primitive yet useful functions. Everything wrong with the modern world must now be blamed on the US. Other quite serious threats have yet to be defined and digested as it were, so now the US is unlikely to receive the benefit of anyone’s doubts. So the instinctual response, if not overridden by rational understanding, is a predisposition to ‘herd up’ against that big, noisy, dark creature brumbling about in the wood. Memory and rationality play no part in this. They have already forgotton that the big lumbering shape in the woods is the sheepdog that kept them alive for the last 5 generations. No bother — they have forgotton. Herd up. Cud chewers with blurred vision start spreading ignorant rumours. Something that big must be bad, and childhood nightmares return as dark imaginations run wild.
Of course the lurking wolves just love it. They aren’t stupid so they are happy to play into the hysteria — picking off stragglers, and positioning themselves for the moment when they can strike to kill.
Its a story older than history itself.
Interesting that you say that…This is an AP news report that came out today:
“PARIS — Islamic extremists are returning to France from Iraq’s battlegrounds with the skills and desire to carry out attacks in Europe, a top anti-terror judge said Thursday — warning that Europe needs a better-coordinated effort to face the threat.
The Iraq war is changing the face of militancy in France, investigating judge Jean-Francois Ricard said in an interview with The Associated Press. As with some of the suspects in the London bombings, some French Islamic radicals with violent intentions are unknown to authorities, he said.
Islamic militants from France have long participated in armed struggles and received battle training around the globe, in places such as Chechnya, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq, Ricard said. But only rarely have such militants sought to bring violence back with them, he said.
“I have confirmation … of this return (from Iraq) with action targeting our countries. We’ve been starting to see it this year” and in 2004, Ricard said. “It’s very worrying.”
“The return of some individuals is starting: They’re taking round trips. You can’t think that once in Iraq, there’s no return,” he said. “It is not true.” Source: Click Here
funny thing is…France was strongly against the war in Iraq. Classic example of muslims stabbing you in the back. Of course, Europe did carry out the original “Crusades” for so many centuries…so I’m guessing their still holding a little grudge. ;-)
Hank you will not be allowed to be here if you don’t apologize and if you want to comment next time:
you can critize me but keep it on the main issue.
Charles– “Do you have a driver’s license?”
Yes, issued by a state. The federal government doesn’t have any authority over any interstate travel except trade. I’m not in trade and so my motions through the country are none of their business. If, however, they feel like electronicly tagging aliens, that’s fine with me.
“If yes, has that been a blow to your civil liberties?”
With the supreme court authorizing the police to demand ID on request, yes, now it is.
“Licenses seem like a rather innocuous means of regulating whether or not someone has the right to drive a vehicle.”
How about an RFID-enabled license? Still innocuous? How about that chip containing all sorts of personal information that, if you ask me, the government shouldn’t be allowed to collect on citizens. This is the same reason I am against the income tax and feel that should be repealed. The federal government is gaining far more power than they were granted and the powers were intentionally limited. Not sure why you are so trusting of government. As Bush says, “You can fool some of the people all the time and those are the ones you want to concentrate on.” Don’t feel bad. There is a sucker born every minute.
“How about an ID that identifies whether or not you have the right to be in the country period???”
As I said, tag the aliens. Shoot the illegals.
“How does that harm you?”
Because I can’t show an immediate harm, we should surrender all my civil rights? I don’t think my buddy Tom Jefferson was counting on people like you who treat their protections with such a cavalier attitude towards their freedom. How sad and un-American.
“Now don’t resort to sophomoric excuses that contain the word ‘fascism’.”
Ah, being stripped of your freedom is a “sophomoric excuse” now? Hmmm… interesting concept. So, when you run for office, your slogan will be something like, “Be mature and submit!” Nice.
“The fact that I do notthink its ok for illegal aliens to be in this country does not make me a fascist.”
No, caputulating to the fascists is what makes you a fascist in my book. Capisci?
“I’m not a hardliner on this issue.”
Too late now. Just be mature and submit.
“I am open to listen to solid reasons for having/not having IDs.”
How about it violates my fourth amendment right to security of person, papers and effects. How about you go over to eff.org and sign up for the newsletter.
“Right now I lean towards ‘having.’”
That’s because you’re scared and you think all these government invasions are going to make you safer when in fact it just puts you more in danger than you were before and this time from terrorists AND the government.
“I suppose an upgraded SS Card could serve the same purpose”
Yeah, I’d like to see a cop try to justify demanding my SS card. Hmmm… SS card. That sounds like something the Nazis would have liked.
“Why not have a separate ‘carry with you’ card that identifies you, but is not used for financial purposes? Why not have a civilian ID?”
How about we just implant an RFID chip in everyone’s right wrist or forehead? That would sure be handy when the Christian Supremacists finish taking over the government. Make Satan’s job one helluvalot easier too.
“I have an idea. Let’s start up a propaganda web site and post nonsense articles.”
Too late. Fox beat you to it.
“I am flattered that Mike spends so much of his precious time on this earth utterly infatuated with the USA.”
I have a feeling he probably doesn’t spend much time at all, considering his lack of original writings. He just zings by to paste spam on the odd occasion. Funny though, it does strike me that you and your right-wing conspirators here spend quite a bit of time trying to prove him wrong. Methinks thou doth protest too much.
Anyway, time to move on from this thread I think. Sorry I missed replying to your notes to me, but they got spammed under and I didn’t dig it out until just now.
Jeff , Hank and CMAR 2 —
I post regarding the FACT that a Third Force was active in South Africa stoking black on black violence during the Apartheid years as a divide and rule ploy. I post about the FACT that this was successful in diverting attention from the Government of the day. I point out that this model is tried and tested.
Your intelligent, and analytical response?
Listen, if I wanted to talk to chimpanzees, I’d go to the zoo. Your response is a spectacular exercise in missing the point. So we’re violent. Tell me something I don’t know.
FACT: The ‘dirty tricks’ tactic was used during Apartheid.
FACT: It worked.
FACT: The US has both planned and was involved in similar exercises in the past.
QUESTION: IS the US doing the same thing RIGHT NOW, given the numerous anecdotal evidence available? Why wouldn’t it?
Ah, look, don’t answer. I already know about the SA crime stats, thanks.
Your response is a spectacular exercise in missing the point. So we’re violent. Tell me something I don’t know.
Actually, the last I heard, it was the murder-capital of the world. Thus discussion of the “violent” US is irrelevant.
IS the US doing the same thing RIGHT NOW, given the numerous anecdotal evidence available? Why wouldn’t it?
Err…because it undermines American support for the war? It would strike me as a remarkably useless tactic in fact. Why plant phoney bombs when the terrorists have shown themselves willing to put on a explosive jacket and do it themselves?
This is a conspiracy fantasy of certain Sunni Arabs rather than admit that their fellow sectarians are engaged in a nasty fight with their Muslim “brothers”.
I’ll ask you the same question: Why wouldn’t certain Arabs like Ladybird latch on to crazy theories like this one so they can direct their anger at the US (whom they hated already) rather than Arabs of their own culture?
Why would it?
Evidence that terrorists/insurgents are conducting these ops are far more than just ‘anecdotal.’
Deliberate targeting of civilians, infrastructure, and Iraqi government institutions serve neither proclaimed coalition aims, nor do they serve fantasy conspiratorial aims declared by the anti-US crowd.
For example, if the whole point of this was to steal Iraqi oil, why would we destroy oil infrastructure and foment civil war? It will require several years of heavy investment and construction before Iraqi oil production really kicks in. This is not possible during civil war. The conflict would no doubt further decimate the infrastructure.
Charles, CMAR —
The US has an interest at keeping the Iraqis divided and angry at each other. It can then sit as a powerbroker and play each faction off against the other in a nice little merry go round.
Furthermore, the US has indulged in this kind of action before. It’s not new. Take the bombing of a train station in Bologna, Italy, where ultimately the tracks led back to the CIA. The bombings were blamed on the commies, but perpetrated by far right groups in order to inculpate the commies.
This modus operandi is classic United States. Keep control of the host country’s intelligence apparatus, and one can stage these ‘tricks’ at will, or organise a coup if one is called for. Why do you think that the US still pays and controls Iraqi intelligence TO THIS DAY? Why do you think that it just about freaked when it heard there were plans afoot to train the Iraqi military in Iran? Because it, the US, wants to be the one cultivating the loyalty of the Iraqi army and intelligence. True power stems from the barrel of a gun. That much is obvious by now.
I doubt that US and Brits are dumb enough to plant bombs personally, though — although I could be wrong. (The equipment on those undercover brits looks mighty suspicious.) There’s a principle called ‘plausible deniability’ which dictates that one should use a third party to perform these actions, so if it goes pear shaped, one can deny involvement.
Oops, Iraqi agents caught setting bombs in public? Rogue agents. Bad apples. Insurgent infiltrators.
Please, the ‘sunnis’ have all to lose by instigating a civil war. The Americans gain by keeping the Shiites scared of the sunnis and in need of protection.
To what end?
I think the Iraqi factions have given eachother plenty to worry about without US interference. Let’s not ignore the last 35 years, nor the centuries old animosity between Sunni/shia — OK?
TO CHARLES & CMAR11
I find it amusing that charles & cmar11 are blind to see the facts about there beloved bush and the current neo facist government that is leading america at the moment. charles look at this forum and understand on ething … look at all the various people contributing to this forum from various places around the world.every person is saying that they do not trust the objectives and priciples of the current bush government and you and cmar are blinded by ignorance and arrogance and questionable loyalty to bush. If one perwson was anti america than you can class that person as one-off. There are people from england, sweden, australia, greece and from america that are stating that the u.s was wrong to go to iraq and it has every thing to gain by the chaos in iraq. why cant you see the error of your blind judgement and accept that may you can be wrong and all these people in here may be right. These comments from the various people around the world ar edirected towards the common namerican people, but are directed towards the bush government and the far right christian fundamentalits who are running america at this moment in time. There motives are highly critical and wrong and they are misleding the american people.You make your selves to be inteligent but you are not displaying any inteligent signs. Every one who is critical of american motives cannot be wrong can they ?? that currently would be nearly the whole world and half of america !! think about it rationally .…
bruno.…
I agree with your comments as listed above. America has every thing to gain by the current chaos and murder that is happening in iraq at this moment in time. Regarding the crap that is being spewed out by the likes of charles and cmar why is their beloved bush and the current neo facist christian fundamentalists not doing any thing about north korea. north korea has nuclear weapons and it is not a democracy so by the same token of principles of “democracy”, “freedom” and the “american way” which bush used to invade iraq why doesnt bush liberate the north koreans from the “dictator” who runs north korea. the reason is that north korea has no OIL.
Bruno,
Please, the ’sunnis’ have all to lose by instigating a civil war. The Americans gain by keeping the Shiites scared of the sunnis and in need of protection.
That’s true about the Sunni Arabs. They have been slow to realize that over the last 2.5 years, but they seem to be coming ’round and the actions of the terrorists in western Iraq and Baghdad are helping.
Meanwhile, the sectarian violence has only slowed the errosion of the influence of SCIRI and Dawa. It has hurt support for the war in the US. How is that to the advantage of the US? And how is any of this to the advantage fo the British who will never get to “control the oil” no matter what happens?
BRUNO…
I totallky agree with you. Bush and the current neo facists, christian fundamentalists who are running america have every thing to gain from the current chaos and murder happening in iraq. It is an old practice of “DIVIDE & CONQUER” the americans are using, which the brits invented & who saw the error in their ways and gave up this ugly policy which the americans have taken up.
The lies which are spewed out from bush and his neo facist racist goverment and his monkeys , likes of charles & cmar are exactly that, LIES. The reasons given for invading iraq to the world , rubbish like “freedom”, “liberty” & “the american way” are not being used to invade nort korea. unlike saddam, north korea has nuclear weapons, chemical waepons but you do not see bush(evil bastard)manipulating the world to invade nort korea . why not ????
The answer is north korea has no OIL !!!!!!!!!!
The answer is north korea is not a threat to ISREAL !
” ” ” ” ” ” “” ” ” ” ” north koreans are not muslims and arabs, therefore are of no importance to the neo racist christians fundamentalist that run america.
The reasons given by monkeys like charles & cmar of removing the dictator saddam as he had killed loads of iraqis which america wanted to stop, well north korea is run by a dictator who i am sure has killed enough of his people, but nort korea has not been invaded. STRANGE BUT TRUE.
Another reason why north korea has not been invaded by the americans is the fact that north korea has nuclear weapons and if attacked by american fundamentalists north korea would kick ass. there would be so many american soilders dead and america its self would be attacked. so it is very risky to attack nort korea therefore leave it alone.
So people there you go. THE REASONS GIVEN BY AMERICA TO INVADE AND KILL THE CITIZENS OF OTHER COUNTRIES ONLY APPLY WHEN AMERICA HAS A REASON WHICH BENIFITS AMERICA. AMERICA ONLY ATTACKS OTHER COUNTRIES WHEN TOLD TO DO SO BY THERE MASTERS THE JEWS OF ISREAL. AMERICA ONLY FIGHTS BACK WHEN THERE IS NO THREAT OF ANY RETALIATION BY THE COUNTRY BEING ATTACKED IE NORTH KOREA.
so people dont believe the rubbish fed by bush and his monekys (charles & cmar). the world knows all this and god is watching. have you heard the latest from the neo facist christain fundamentalists that run america… jesus talks to bush and tells him what to do.….. it makes me laugh. lol
Why do people on this blog hate Jews so much…?
Jew Haters = Nazis (proven fact)
LOL!!! yeah, it only took the brits a thousand years to realize this. Remember back in the good ole days of the “original crusades” For centuries they(brits) did this! Not 3 years! Centuries!!!
The level of immaturity and lack of basic human history from people on this site is amazing.
Your right, they’re not. North Koreans have more brians, thus more intelligent. You’re not seeing or hearing about N. Koreans blowing themselves up and killing innocents in the name of Allah. You’re not seeing or hearing about N. Koreans driving around in bomb filled cars and killing innocents in a market. The N. Korean government are just starving their own poeple.
Yes, N. Koreans are a wee bit more intelligent than that I think.
Like Ted Kennedy and John Kerry, aren’t they a part of the government that is running America? Last time I check, they both hold some pretty powerful government positions.
There are plently of Democrat and Republican christain fundamentalists to go around, you’re showing you age now.
I’m currently an advisor to Jesus and I’m advising him to nuke the middle east ;-)