—Update—
Now the story on the BBC, “US ‘uses incendiary arms’ in Iraq”.
Italian state TV, Rai, has broadcast a documentary accusing the US military of using white phosphorus bombs against civilians in the Iraqi city of Falluja.
And on the “independent” also ” US forces ‘used chemical weapons’ during assault on city of Fallujah”.
—End Update–
This is for all the people who are crying crocodiles tears on the dead baby in the comments section linking to an Iraqi Blogger.
Bodies burned without any traces of fire on the clothes and trust me there are many dead babies.
You can watch the documentary in Arabic, English and Italian.
And if you still have the stomach to see more then the images section is here and here and here.
Excerpts from the meeting between Adolf Hitler and the Mufti, Haj Amin Husseini, on 28 November 1941.
The notes were taken by Dr. Paul Otto Schmidt and are quoted in Gerald Fleming’s “Hitler and the Final Solution”, p. 101–104. Also geheime Reichssache 57 a/41, Records Dept. Foreign and Commonwealth Office Pa/2:
The Fџhrer then made the following declaration, requesting the Mufti to lock it deep in his heart:
1) He (the Fџhrer) would carry on the fight until the last traces of the Jewish-Communist European hegemony had been obliterated.
2) In the course of this fight, the German army would — at a time that could not yet be specified, but in any case in the clearly foreseeable future — gain the Southern exit of Caucasus.
3) As soon as this breakthrough was made, the Fџhrer would offer the Arab world his personal assurance that the hour of liberation had struck. Thereafter, Germany’s only remaining objective in the region would be limited to the annihilation of the Jews living under British protection in Arab lands.
Speeches by Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler before senior SS officers in Poznan, October 4 and 6, 1943.
Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals — Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949–1953, Vol. XIII, p. 323, and Himmler, Reichsfuehrer-SS — P. Padfield, Henry Holt and Co, NY, 1990, p. 469:
I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish race. It’s one of those things it is easy to talk about, “the Jewish race is being exterminated”, says one party member, “that’s quite clear, it’s in our program, elimination of the Jews, and we’re doing it, exterminating them”. And then they come, 80 million worthy Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. Of course the others are vermin, but this one is an A-1 Jew. Not one of those who talk this way has watched it, not one of them has gone through it. Most of you know what it means when 100 corpses are lying side by side, or 500, or 1,000. To have stuck it out and at the same time — apart from exceptions caused by human weakness — to have remained decent fellows, that is what has made us hard. This is a page of glory in our history which has never been written and is never to be written.
I ask of you that what I say in this circle you really only hear and never speak of. We come to the question: how is it with the women and the children? I have resolved even here on a completely clear solution. That is to say I do not consider myself justified in eradicating the men — so to speak killing or ordering them killed — and allowing the avengers in the shape of the children to grow up for our sons and grandsons. The difficult decision has to be taken, to cause this Volk [people] to disappear from the earth.
[This speech was recorded; the magnetic tapes are in the National Archives in Washington, DC]
Are you really so convincedthat there isn’t any evidence that the Holocaust took place LB?
I have to go to bed now, every thing you put here will be answered
Interesting reading…
But I think we can close this line of inquiry for now.
Testimonies of Auschwitz SS-Men
From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz.
Quoted in “‘The Good Old Days’” — E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255:
At another, later gassing–also in autumn 1941–Grabner* ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was also a transport of 200–250 Jews, once again men, women and children. As the Zyklon B–as already mentioned–was in granular form, it trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.
* Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz
——————————————————————————–
Testimony of SS private Hoeblinger.
Extracted from “Der Auschwitz Prozess”, by Hermann Langbein, Vol. I, quoted in “Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers — J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 174:
I was detailed to the transport service and I drove the Sanka [abbreviation for Sanitatskraftwagon/medical truck] which was to carry the prisoners.…
Then we drove to the gas chambers. The medical orderlies climbed a ladder, they had gas masks up there, and emptied the cans. I was able to observe the prisoners while they were undressing. It always proceeded quitely and without them suspecting anything. It happened very quickly.
——————————————————————————–
Testimony of SS private Boeck.
Extracted from “Der Auschwitz Prozess”, by Hermann Langbein, Vol. I, quoted in “Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers — J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 181:
Q: were you present at a gassing operation one day?
A: Yes, it was one evening. I accompanied the driver Hoeblinger. A transport had arrived from Holland and the prisoners had to jump from the wagons. They were well-off Jews. There were women with Persian furs. They arrived by express train. The trucks were already there, with wooden steps before them, and the people climbed aboard. Then they all started off. In the place Birkenau once stood, there was only a long farmhouse (Bunker 2) and beside it four or five big huts. Inside, the people were standing on clothes which were building up on the floor. The block leader and the sergeant, carrying a cane, were there. Hoeblinger said to me ‘lets go over there now’. There was a sign ‘to disinfection’. He said ‘you see, they are bringing children now’. They opened the door, threw the children in and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. The bodies were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch. The next batch were already undressing in the huts. After that I didn’t look at my wife for four weeks.
——————————————————————————–
Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in Krema I in Auschwitz.
Quoted in “KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS”, p. 176:
… The “disinfectors” were at work. One of them was SS-Unterscharfџhrer Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the inscription “Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison! to be opened by trained personnel only!”. The tins were filled to the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
HOLY FUCK!
I’ve got to stop reading this stuff.
And you cynical idiotic dipshits continue to call Bush a fascist?
Sorry am I being rude?
So Bush is the guy who overthrew the brutal murderous dictator who gassed civilians, and he has somehow become the bad guy? The US is spending blood and treasure to allow Iraqi the opportunity to become a free society and Bush is the bad guy?
Whew.
Nadia– “I think they ment it does not matter whether the recipient was an Israeli or Arab.”
I will take your word for it. I think these parents are a couple of those enlightened few who consider themselves more a part of the human race than any select few. In the US, most parents do not expect to outlive their children and those who have claim it to be the most difficult experience of their lives. I think it is difficult for Americans to understand that this is a common scenario in the Middle East and makes it that much more difficult for us to empathize which those people who have no choice but to live that type of existence. It is people like this that encourage me to think that there might actually be some hope for us pitiful little humans.
Yes. The translation is close to the following:
“I am extremely angry. I am under the illusion that my CiC sent me here to help you overthrow a brutal dictator and, in response to this help I have selflessly given to your people, you have attempted to turn me into human hamburger. As far as I am concerned, you should all just die and that would benefit me regardless because my enlistment bonus allowed me to buy a nice babe-magnet truck with gunrack and I need cheap gas to drive it on my military pay. So, if you want to play the game this way, I can be much more brutal than you can because American culture has done an effective job of desensitizing me to violence and due to the high state of US war technology, my hamburger grinder is better than yours. So, bring it on Muslim bitches.”
The sad part is that this young specialist is completely unaware of the intriguing the US government has been perpetrating in the Middle East for the past 50 years to maintain a status quo of dictatorships which will benefit the US economy by securing access to cheap fuel. His ignorance has allowed him to enter that region with a fairly clear conscience plus a crapload of tanks and guns and planes and the resistance he has met is a complete suprise to him. He was told that he would be greeted by cheering crowds and showered with confetti and flowers. That people have resisted US intervention in a nation with one of the largest oil reserves in the world has him completely baffled. It is completely contradictory behavior considering all he has been told by his chain of command. Hopefully, his submersion up to his eyeballs in blood will snap him out of his torpor and he will stop voting for the fascists.
Charles– “White Phosphorus (WP)”
Thanks for the description, but I already understood the concept of WP. I’ve seen incendiary devices in action. As a former member of a rapid deployment force, I’ve been through all the classes on war crimes too and you have missed the point. WP is not banned from use, but it’s use is restricted. It is not to be used as an anti-personel weapon. It is to be used only in the absence of enemy personel. It is used as an illuminator or for the destruction of equipment and buildings ONLY. Using incendiaries where personel are known to be present is a violation of the law of land warfare.
What I would recommend is for Iraqis to collect and store as much forensic, photographic and video evidence as possible. Collect witnessed and signed affidavits documenting occurrences. Collect this evidence as soon as possible after the event. You should make sure to note as much of the following to identify your attackers: size of unit, activity, location, units, time and equipment. When the war crimes trials begin, as surely they will, you will need as much evidence of these occurrences as possible.
“No evidence?”
Buddy, you have missed the point. What I am wondering is why you constantly miss the point. It must be willful ignorance and misdirection. She knows the holocaust occured, but she is trying to get through your skull that there was little forensic evidence on the holocaust even though we are all fully aware that it indeed occured. There are many people out there who will not admit there was a holocaust, but I have never met one who was not a member of a white supremacist organization. Now you are acting just like one of those people by maintaining this constant state of denial on virtually any evidence which is presented to you on any unflattering detail of the war in Iraq. How does it make you feel to find out that you have so much in common with an American Nazi? Good? Bad? Do you care? Do you just want to collect whatever paycheck you are receiving to sit on this website denying anything anyone says here and be done with it? How do you live with yourself and still sleep at night?
“And you cynical idiotic dipshits continue to call Bush a fascist?”
Flattery notwithstanding, Bush fits the political science definition of fascist.
“The US is spending blood and treasure to allow Iraqi the opportunity to become a free society and Bush is the bad guy?”
That’s very philanthropic of you, but nobody invited us over there and we are unwelcome guests. We need to pack up and leave ASAP. Besides, because you won’t admit that the war is about oil, doesn’t mean it’s about “freedom and democracy”. Try examining more of the situation starting with the PNAC report on how China is going to attack the US over oil sometime in the future and then work the rationale for the war out from that.
Actually I just want you dumbshits to think about who’s keeping the lights on and what that takes and (i know this one is a stretch) stop shooting at us while we are trying to bring your bullshit country kicking and screaming into the 21st century. I know us army dipshits mean only something more that you can throw a rock at, shoot at, critisize at but come on, Im trying to keep your fucking power on. Yeah, you never did welcome us, nor did many of you help us. this is my second tour and I’m sick of all of your collective shit. You people seem to not even care for your own regaurd. You call me alooj every day on the street. Meanwhile I get less than 4 hour sleep per night, work like a fucking dog, get shot at all the time, have many scars from shrapnel, my back is going out, I am only 20 years old, you constantly fuck with the pipeline, and like john here, you and your ilk considder me and mine, fascists. As long as were assigning labels, the people of Iraq are the laziest fucks and the most self-centered pricks ever (even worse than the fucking french). You won’t lift a finger help, even in your own cement plants. And yes john, like every swinging dick I have a gun and my car is compesatory for my dick size and my bank account swells with money because of my time here and all I want is to get laid, drink, and kill. That’s why I voulenteered for a second time through. That is why it is okay that I break my sisters heart being here. that is why Im glad that my girlfriend left me and all my friends never write back anymore. That is why it is okay that too many of the best human beings that I had the privilage to have known are dead, mangled and insane. Im almost done here and will be glad to leave and never have to see another worthless Iraqi asshole again. I can’t believe I fucking cared about you worthless sons of bitches. Maybe if this was a war about oil, I would feel better about putting in the time energy and commitment. Fuck You, see you in at the east side of An-Najaf.
OK Charles let’s start
All the evidences you provided above (pictures, videos and testimonies) prove nothing, all it can prove that there were Jews in jails, they have mistreated and, they were hungry and many of them died because of sickness, bacteria and viruses, There are no evidence of mass or organized killings.
The same materials (videos, pictures) of dead Iraqis and testimonies from Iraqis and even from American soldiers you rejected as evidence.
I asked to show me one document that Jews had been gassed at that time and you failed all what you showed me is one testimony of an American official and we have to check his credibility (thank to Colin Paul testimony in the UN).
You showed me one document about a truck carrying Zyklon-B, which prove also nothing because Zyklon-B was a normal procedure 95% of it used for ordinary fumigations and even used by allies in soldiers barracks.
See here
Again I don’t deny the mass killings of the Jews (though, I am still have a problem with the number 6Million, 1,5 is more reliable), I just want to show you how hypocrite you are.
You accept all the pictures, clips and testimonies from WWll as evidence while you are denying them in Iraq.
Did any Iraqi asked you for this?
LB,
I think you did not check all of my posts — which are just the tip of the iceberg regarding the holocaust.
I presented links to actual German documents signed by German officials authorizing mass deportations and executions. It also included the first hand testimony of Germans involved in the killings. There are reams of documents and testimonies (not just snapshots of hungry women and children). You are absolutely wrong.
Now fast forward 60 years. Your ‘evidence’ consists of second hand reports from biased journalists and people who have no idea what the difference is between a chemical weapon and an explosive. The technology exists today that would make it simple for any of their claims to be validated. Some Iraqi official says he has proof that the US used mustard and nerve gasses in Fallujah? OK. Where is it???
The reports you provided are based upon ignorance and political bias.
The US and Iraqi militaries certainly did use violence to kill insurgents in Fallujah. I won’t argue that point. But don’t be a sucker for propaganda that can’t stand up to even the most simplistic verification.
And you didn’t checked out many posts on this Blog and other websites (most of them are Americans), there massive confessions from American soldiers themselves about mass killings of Iraqis.
Take a second look at the video and the images do you see women and children or do you filter these images?
Specialist,
Anti-US and pro-Saddam/terrorist forces are much louder than the tens of millions of people around the world who support you. The mob is rarely right. Don’t get discouraged by their propaganda and the ignorant masses who parrot their nonsense. You have far more important things to worry about. Keep up the good work and stay safe!
LB,
After a few seconds of google searching I presented you with documents from the Germans that proved not only their ideological desire to exterminate the jews (from the highest levels), but also actual documents that proved their implementation of the ‘final solution.’
I do not deny that Iraqis died in Fallujah. I do not deny that the US has killed civilians in Iraq. But your claims that the US used chemical weapons are not supported by anything you provided. If you actually cared about peace and human rights, you would worry more about the threat from people like Saddam and terrorists, rather than the United States.
Hahahaha that is funny, he admit it he is doing it for money.
Massive confessions from US soldiers?
You mean from this guy?
Obviously Iraqis who live in Holland and do not dwell in Baghdad do not underastand sarcasm…
or this guy
US troops ‘kill 13 Iraqi protesters’
and this is in Najaf, all Shiia city
LB,
I do not deny that US troops have made mistakes in Iraq and that civilians have died as a result.
I do think that the ‘mistakes’ are just that.
You may want to compare/contrast with freedom fighter tactics who deliberately kill civilians.
Charles
If you forget the lights on when leave your house that is a mistake.
If you forget to tank your car, that is a mistake.
You are talking about crimes here, don’t call them mistakes
LB,
That’s cute. ‘By mistake’ I mean it was not the intention of the soldiers to shoot civilians. Perhaps the ‘protesters’ were approaching the soldiers in threatening way? Perhaps (gosh I can’t imagine) someone in Fallujah took some shots at the soldiers?
Or do you really think the soldiers decided to just start shooting at peaceful civilians?
In any case, let’s not get too far off the point of the thread.
I looked at the documentary again (only made it 3/4 through this time). It is clear that this is blatant propaganda. Again they keep showing bloated corpses with blackened and decaying body parts. This is exactly what happens to corpses after a few days/weeks. The bloat and turn black. I gave you a link using time lapse photography of a dead pig. It is not a mysterious process.
There is no possible way that the people making this film did not know this. You can be sure that they knew that YOU DON“T know this and don’t care enough to check.
You can be sure the producers know that WP and napalm are not ‘chemical’ weapons — but they also know that you don’t know.
You can be sure that they know that WP and napalm will absolutely burn whatever they touch — clothes, flesh, furniture, whatever. Yet they still know they can present decaying bodies as victims of chemical weapons.
You can be sure that they know that WP cannot penetrate concrete ceilings to mysteriously burn people inside of homes without burning their clothes. They know these things. You don’t. They are deliberately misleading you.
They know they can show pictures of dead dogs to ‘prove’ that we gassed the city. They will also show you pics of decaying bodies who have been eaten by dogs. They know full well that you are not capable of making the connection that if the dogs had been gassed with the people, they could not have eaten them.
This type of propaganda isn’t even cleverly disguised. Anyone with a hint of knowledge can see it for what it is. They feed upon your ignorance.
Charles
I think a better advice to that disturbed specialist would be to immediate seek of professional help
He needs help because you can’t understand his sarcasm? Because he is annoyed with dipshits pimping propaganda that only encourages the terrorists who are trying to kill him and his buddies every day?
Charles you are ignorant.
Charles,
Be careful there; too much logic is going to confuse the locals, and they don’t want to hear it. It is, however, very interesting from an outsider’s pov to listen to this stuff, because it explains why that part of the world is such a clusterfuck with that kind of mindset; or maybe it’s just a brilliant game. Naw!
@ Nadia re: Charles is ignorant
Napalm and WP are incendiaries.
That means they burn things.
That’s why they call them incendiaries.
They can burn people.
They can certainly burn clothes.
They can burn anything that will burn.
Any bodies that you saw with intact clothing were obviously not killed by incendiaries.
Any bodies you saw that were missing limbs or had obvious trauma wounds were not killed by incendiaries.
Any corpse that is left for days/weeks will turn black and bloated.
It has nothing to do with incendiaries.
WP is also used to create smoke. Tanks and infantry can deploy WP to make smoke screens. Artillery can deploy WP for smoke screens.
I didn’t see any evidence that napalm was used.
Incendiaries like napalm are much less effective than high explosives against concrete structures.
WP is absolutely ineffective.
The people who made the documentary know that there are ignorant fools who will believe anything you tell them as long as they present their bona fides of being anti-US.
Funny how they couldn’t find any independent weapons experts to confirm their claims.
Oh and PS —
WP and Napalm are not considered ‘chemical weapons.’
While they are made up of chemicals, and they are used as weapons, they are no more ‘chemical weapons’ than would be a Marine’s boot if he were to literally kick an insurgent in the ass.
Last March 3, Dr. Khalid ash Shaykhli, an Iraqi health ministry official, told a Baghdad press conference that the US military had used internationally banned chemical weapons, including nerve gas.
Ladybird,
You have to be kidding right, no evidence of the holocaust. Open your eyes. For one I had a very good friend that passed this year that liberated one of those camps. He was there, he saw with his own eye, he smelt the death, he walked over the corpses. People took picture. You really have to be in the Arab parallel universe to say something like that, and I mean really deep in it over your head.
Ladybird, he also said we used nuclear bombs too
never believe anything that comes from Aljazeera.COM
LB,
Isn’t this the same guy you quoted before? Something must have made him think nerve gas was used. What was ‘it’? Did he send that ‘it’ to the lab for analysis? What were the results?
We already went through this guy earlier in the thread. Why do you repeat it again?
The article was dated back in March. What were the lab results?
Charles, please read this comment by Mark Kraft: The U.S. army committed war crimes in Fallujah 2004
And find more details on Mark’s website: U.S. Marine comes forward, says military used white phosphorus in Fallujah
SPC FYF– “I just want you dumbshits to think”
I was going to rip on you, but I decided not to because I do understand what you are going through. I know it is not your fault. But if you want to be angry, you should direct your anger at the people who waged the war and that is the greedy fascists running the US government at this point in time.
You want people to think, but you yourself are only willing to consider a narrow part of the issue. When you took your military oath, your first duty was designated as defending the US Constitution. This duty outweighs every other part of the oath. Defending the Constitution means becoming aware of the actions of your government and the effects it has on liberty in this nation and then doing your part to preserve that liberty whether it means going to war or abstaining from war. I took the same oath and I still consider myself bound by it, but I have a broader outlook on life now than when I took it and I understand that it means a whole lot more than what I thought it did. It is the entire reason I spend so much time on this site trying to make people aware of our government’s misdeeds. If I seem abusive, it’s not an attack on soldiers per se, but an attack on the radical conservitives who are swamping this site.
Our government has lied to our nation to facilitate the waging of an illegal war of aggression. That is Hitler-type stuff in other words. You signed up into the military, but at some point you have to consider whether you are actually keeping your original oath. If I were still in the military at this point and our government tried to send me to Iraq to fight in an illegal war, I would have to consider this to be an illegal order and I would refuse to follow it. You are responsible for following illegal orders and I guess that you have paid the price to a certain extent for doing so. I don’t think you are a war criminal, unless you actually violate the law of war, but I do think that you have been suckered in. If I were in Iraq, I would have to change my status to conscientious objector on the grounds of an illegal invasion and insist that my commander send me home. At this point, it seems to me to be the only honorable thing for a soldier to do.
Would this course of action possibly get me court-martialed? Probably, but that would be the sacrifice that I would have to make in order to maintain my honor. Would your brothers-in-arms hate you? Probably, but true Americans who love liberty will consider you to be a hero. You need to decide as a man of honor what is really important to you I guess.
You feel that you are doing a good thing I’m sure and I respect you for being man enough to put your life on the line, but there is more going on here than most soldiers are aware of. You need to consider that it is likely that you are surrounded by people who are terrified of you because you are dressed like some kind of space age stormtrooper. And people who look just like you in the eyes of the villagers you are trying to save have seriously wronged many of these same villagers. You might have comported yourself to the highest standards, but that doesn’t make a difference to them. They don’t know you and what a really nice guy you probably are. They see you as something to lash out against regardless of your actual MOS. I don’t support senseless violence in any form, but you have to consider that they are just behaving according to the animal part of their human nature and it is to be expected. If circumstances were different, they probably would invite you over for dinner and treat you as an honored guest. Who knows. But as it stands, if you want to continue on the path you have chosen, your death is a possibility. It’s fucked up, but that’s what you signed up for. If you were to accept my advice, you would make a stand and refuse to participate anymore. But you have to do what your conscience drives you to do and if that is to get shot while trying to keep the power going, then that is what you have to do.
Don’t think I am against you. I am right with you. I have no special love for Arabs other than they are humans and I don’t think humans should be blown up without a damn good reason. I’ve been known to say fuck the Iraqis myself. We owed them nothing and Bush has wasted the lives and fortunes of many in the pursuit of oil. Bush does not care who dies as long as he and his cronies profit. It should never have happened.
I know you feel the whole world is against you, but trust me it’s not. I know Jody snaked your lady, but that just means she wasn’t deserving of a good man like you. I know your buddies are no longer with the living, but that doesn’t mean you should stop trying to live.
If you would like someone to keep in touch with here at home, please send me some type of mailing address through LadyBird’s private comment section and she can forward it to me. I’d be more than happy to send letters and care packages and anything else I can do to try to keep you sane so you can have a good life after you come back.
If you decide that you have to stay in Iraq, dude, fuck the dumb shit. Forget the power and keep your head down and stay alive. Just stay alive and those people who haven’t lost their minds here at home will continue to make every attempt we can to get you back in as whole a condition as possible.
Charles– “people who have no idea what the difference is between a chemical weapon and an explosive.”
And you can’t ever seem to remember that you are dealing with someone who uses English as a second or third language. If she says we are using chemical weapons, we understand from high school chemistry class that phosphorus is a chemical. I’ve even seen how furiously a tad of it will burn when dropped into water. Why don’t you take a little phosphorus dust and sprinkle it on the back of your hand. Make a video of you doing it because I could use some amusement.
She makes a claim that we are using nuclear weapons and you say we aren’t. In a sense, you are both wrong and you are both right. We are not using fusion or fission devices (God, I hope not) in Iraq. But, if you consider the language barrier, maybe I would consider her to be correct in that we are using depleted uranium. You probably think that DU is completely safe. If you were holding a chunk of it in your hand, you would be right as far as I can tell. But, if you turn it into an anti-tank round and fire it at something, that round turns to a powder and that powder sinks to the ground. The next time it rains, that dust is washed into the water table and then villagers drink it. It mixes with cellular material and creates mutations which result in birth defects. Do you still think this is OK? Those people will suffer from this for a long time to come. DU is possibly responsible for much of what is considered to be “Gulf War Syndrome”. There is plenty of info out there on these subjects if you were actually interested in truth and not just trying to justify and rationalize and illegal war.
“The reports you provided are based upon ignorance and political bias.”
You’re the last person who should criticize someone for being biased.
“But don’t be a sucker for propaganda that can’t stand up to even the most simplistic verification.”
And how about you stop dismissing out-of-hand everything that doesn’t support your case. I know we have definitely used WP in Iraq because I’ve seen footage and I recognize it’s distinctive characteristics when it detonates. If that stuff is being used where personel are known to exist, it is a war crime and I’d like to see the perps punished without leniency.
“Anti-US and pro-Saddam/terrorist forces are much louder”
Right now, the bulk of the world is anti-US. I haven’t seen anyone on this site even once who was pro-Saddam, not even Michael. The is most certainly nothing to suggest that ANYONE here is what can be classified as a terrorist unless your keyboard can be made to explode from drivel overload. And as far as being much louder? Have you watched Fox News lately? Not only are they loud, but they are completely full of shit too. Fair and balanced my ass.
“The mob is rarely right.”
Correct, but you don’t realize that YOU are the mob, not those of us who are still sane.
“Don’t get discouraged by their propaganda and the ignorant masses who parrot their nonsense.”
Says the propaganda master. I wish I could embed a raspberry here.
“Keep up the good work and stay safe!”
Finally something we can agree on. Too bad Bush had to put him in that situation to begin with.
“I do not deny that Iraqis died in Fallujah. I do not deny that the US has killed civilians in Iraq.”
Nope, but you do try to nitpick anything anyone says in order to discredit and misinform. In other words, you’re full of it. Stay tuned for when I dismantle the documents you posted as rationale for the war. Maybe you’ll learn something.
“If you actually cared about peace and human rights, you would worry more about the threat from people like Saddam and terrorists, rather than the United States.”
HA! Why should anyone ignore the threat of the greatest world power whose government has apparently lost their friggin minds?
LB– “Hahahaha that is funny, he admit it he is doing it for money.”
You’d be better off letting me deal with the soldiers here. Needling people with guns is probably not going to help.
C– “I do think that the ‘mistakes’ are just that.”
That because you are credulous. We all know how the war dogs up high think.
“You may want to compare/contrast with freedom fighter tactics who deliberately kill civilians.”
And you might want to stop thinking that you are any better than those same people.
LB– “You are talking about crimes here, don’t call them mistakes”
There is probably quite a bit of both. Damned fog of war.
C– “Or do you really think the soldiers decided to just start shooting at peaceful civilians?”
She probably doesn’t know what to think. I am about to the same point. Honestly, who knows except the shooters. But you seem far too willing to try to explain away rather than address the crimes that are obviously occuring.
“I looked at the documentary again (only made it 3/4 through this time). It is clear that this is blatant propaganda.”
Not all propaganda is false necessarily. However, there are misconceptions, but does it matter? Should it just be swept under the rug?
TLC– “I think a better advice to that disturbed specialist would be to immediate seek of professional help”
And we’ll see he gets whatever he needs when he gets back too. Don’t worry about it. We’ll take care of ours. You take care of yours.
Nadia– “Charles you are ignorant.”
Actually, he’s probably one of the more intelligent ones really and that aggrivates me more because it means he is being intentionally obstinate.
M– “because it explains why that part of the world is such a clusterfuck with that kind of mindset”
If you think that part of the world is the only part in turmoil, you’re in denial.
As for the rest the drivel, there are not enough hours in the day.
Jon,
Much of what you wrote is incorrect.
WP use is regulated under protocol III of a treaty covering conventional weapons. English as a second language does not explain their mistake. Are you implying that the Italian version does not imply that the US used chemical WMD in Iraq? Be honest here. This is a propaganda piece for dimwits.
WP can not be used deliberately against civilian targets. Military targets are fine. It can be used in areas of civilian activity against military targets if ‘feasible’ precautions have been taken to minimize civilian targeting.
WP is not effective against concrete structures. While it probably was used in some cases to clear roof tops, or other open areas, it probably caused far fewer casualties than HE.
The black bloated bodies they provide as evidence do not support their case. Again, they are just rotting corpses, most of whom died from massive trauma wounds.
You or someone else wrote that WP forms clouds of deadly gas.
Not true. It is used deliberately for smoke screens and soldiers run through it all the time. Exposure causing toxicity is measured in many months of constant exposure. The shortest time frame was 10 months, the longest 18 years. Its probably not a good thing to smoke the stuff, but if it formed a deadly gas then infantry would not be using it tactically where they are located.
Keld,
There is nothing illegal about using WP on military targets.
If it is shown that the US deliberately targeted civilians with WP then those responsible should be put in jail forever and ever. Or executed.
That glorious soldier you refer to is wrong. Why couldn’t these Italians find one objective weapons expert to verify the claims.
WP is used as a smoke screen tactically. An infantry soldier might have a WP grenade that he tosses out in front of himself to obscure his position. He can manouver within the cloud. In massive, long term doses (meaning constant exposure for months and years), it can cause dangerous toxic reactions. Google it! Bew objective! Learn!
Mahatma Gandhi was once asked what he thought about Western civilization. “I think,” he replied, “it would be a very good idea.”
Fallujah Video
Charles, I know it’s legal to use WP on military targets but the documentary claims that this stuff was intendendly and widely used against humans (insurgents and civilians) in Fallujah. I’m not at all an expert in these fields but there seem to be many indications from doctors and journalists that WP (or something similar) was used inside the city. Here’s a snip from Washington Post, Nov. 9 2004:
There’s a discussion going on at Mark Kraft’s blog where he quotes from a military magazine:
At least I hope this documentary will result in an investigation being carried out, since far too many innocent people died for no good reason at all.
Oops, the Gandhi quote was not intended here — and the Fallujah video was from a different post. Sorry.
Keld,
Insurgents ARE military targets.
Convention On Prohibitions Or Restrictions On The Use of Certain Conventional Weapons Which May Be Excessively Injurious Or To Have Indiscriminate Effects
PROTOCOL ON PROHIBITIONS OR RESTRICTIONS ON THE USE OF
INCENDIARY WEAPONS (PROTOCOL III)
Article 1
Definitions
For the purpose of this Protocol:
1. “Incendiary weapon” means any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or a combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target.
(a) Incendiary weapons can take the form of, for example, flame throwers, fougasses, shells, rockets, grenades, mines, bombs and other containers of incendiary substances.
(b) Incendiary weapons do not include:
(i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems;
[I believe in some cases WP was used legitimately under this clause. In other cases it may have been used deliberately as weapon and as such is regulated under different clauses below — Charles]
(ii) Munitions designed to combine penetration, blast or fragmentation effects with an additional incendiary effect, such as armour-piercing projectiles, fragmentation shells, explosive bombs and similar combined-effects munitions in which the incendiary effect is not specifically designed to cause burn injury to persons, but to be used against military objectives, such as armoured vehicles, aircraft and installations or facilities.
2. “Concentration of civilians” means any concentration of civilians, be it permanent or temporary, such as in inhabited parts of cities, or inhabited towns or villages, or as in camps or columns of refugees or evacuees, or groups of nomads.
[Here they are recalling Dresden etc., where incendiaries were deliberately used against civilian targets. I think clauses below would mitigate this clause as per Fallujah. This mitigation or not is a legitimate debate — Charles]
3. “Military objective” means, so far as objects are concerned, any object which by its nature, location, purpose or use makes an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.
4. “Civilian objects” are all objects which are not military objectives as defined in paragraph 3.
5. “Feasible precautions” are those precautions which are practicable or practically possible taking into account all circumstances ruling at the time, including humanitarian and military considerations.
[This is important. If the actual targets that were engaged with WP as a weapon can be identified, it must then be considered whether or not practicable precautions were taken to prevent civilian exposure — Charles]
Article 2
Protection of civilians and civilian objects
1. It is prohibited in all circumstances to make the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects the object of attack by incendiary weapons.
2. It is prohibited in all circumstances to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by air-delivered incendiary weapons.
3. It is further prohibited to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by means of incendiary weapons other than air-delivered incendiary weapons, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken with a view to limiting the incendiary effects to the military objective and to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.
[This is the crux I suppose. Was Fallujah a legitimate target in general? Were precautions taken to warn and evacuate civilians from zone of combat? Were WP deployments used against insurgent targets? Etc. — Charles ]
4. It is prohibited to make forests or other kinds of plant cover the object of attack by incendiary weapons except when such natural elements are used to cover, conceal or camouflage combatants or other military objectives, or are themselves military objectives.
Charles, thanks — I remember having seen parts of that protocol some time ago. I also agree that insurgents (or resistant fighters) are military targets — but the problem is, that about 500,000 civilians or more remained in Fallujah during the weeks of attack — in fact, most males between 15 and 65 yrs were NOT allowed to leave the city. They were turned back and thus involuntarily became military targets as well. That’s probably the biggest war crime committed — not to mention the wastly use of depleted uranium all over Iraq.
Keld,
Before the war Fallujah’s total population was estimated at around 350,000. By the time of the second operation, the population was estimated at around 200,000–350,000. The balance of the people have moved out to friends/relatives due to the fighting and insecurity. I don’t know how many are back there now. I accept that much of the city was destroyed. It is estimated that 60% of the buildings were damabed, and up to 20% destroyed.
In any case, there were certainly not 500,000 civilians in Fallujah during the attack. As can be seen from the ample footage and reporting, the city was mostly deserted. It is estimated that 90% evacuated.
Also, men were allowed to leave the city, but they would be detained.
Some chose to stay rather than submit (surrender) for detention. Enemy soldiers, or suspected combatants, can always surrender before the fight.
Charles, you’re right. It should have been ca. 50,000.
“Are you implying that the Italian version does not imply that the US used chemical WMD in Iraq?”
What I am saying is that you and I understand the correct definition of the term “chemical weapon” and that other people lack this knowledge for whatever reason. I’m not telling you that WP fits the legal definition of a chemical weapon. It doesn’t. But because someone doesn’t know what does and doesn’t fit that definition doesn’t mean that everything they are saying is a lie or propaganda or whatever. It does not mean that WP was not intentionally used where personnel were known to exist. It does not mean that it was either. What I said was to collect as much evidence about these incidents as possible so that, if I crime was committed, we will be able to prosecute the criminals when the whole truth is uncovered.
And don’t look for the specific controls for specific substances. Many weapons are banned for use against personnel by reason of undue suffering. WP is one of those. People may suffer WP burns on accident because it wasn’t known that they were there or whatever and that is why war should always be the last resort instead of the first. There is too much needless suffering on the part of the innocent. But, I am also telling you that if it can somehow be determined that use of WP on personnel occured and was intentional, those responsible should be prosecuted for war crime. With regards to this specific account of things, I cannot confirm or deny, but I am hoping that someone will be able to account for what happened and if a crime occured then prosecution should follow. If one did not, the matter should be laid to rest.
My comments on this are directed towards US military personnel. If you are found to have inflicted undue suffering, you will be prosecuted as you should be. Acting like sadists only hurts the US’ efforts. It never helps.
Keld– “the Gandhi quote was not intended here”
Gandhi was nothing if not funny. ;-)
C– “Insurgents ARE military targets.”
This is true but it doesn’t change anything. The valid uses for incendiaries are as follows: illumination of target, destruction of equipment or structures. That’s it. Intentional use of incendiaries when combatants are known to be present is prohibited. These articles confirm this. I have not actually read those before, but I’ve had many classes on the subject as a regular part of training. The real issue, which is one none of us will be capable of determining here, is the intent.
Let’s imagine, for example, that you and your squad are on a movement to contact. Using your NVGs, you see a number of armed combatants in a field. You call for a target illumination using WP. You knew the target being illuminated was personnel and you called for WP anyway. You are now a war criminal. It is the intent that might make the use a crime. It is hard to prove, but not impossible.
BTW.. I agree that the former SP4 in that video had much in common with a soup sandwich, but we still need to investigate.
Jon,
You are really reaching here. Do you really want to take the position that the producers of the documentary, and all of the people behind it, do not know what a chemical weapon is? Do you really think it was an honest mistake? From the tens of thousands of soldiers who fought in Iraq, including Italian soldiers, they found one or two disgruntled anti-war activists to provide ‘evidence.’ They did not interview even one weapons specialist from any military to discuss WP. This is unabashed sophomoric propaganda. Geeze — they even had Sgrena!
WP has been used by the militaries of the world for almost a hundred years. It is regularly used against military targets as a weapon. Primarily against targets in the open to give them a serious case of ‘ants in pants’ and get them out of trenches so HE can finish the job. The soliders job is to neutralize the enemy and that often means killing him in unpleasant ways. WP does not form gas clouds that melt people. It does not kill instantly. It does make you very uncomfortable and whatever your priorities were before you meet WP, you are soon consumed with the desire to pluck the pieces out that have peppered you — and avoid the ones in the area. For example, a sniper or spotter on a rooftop will become much less effective after a WP round has landed in his proximity. He is unlikely to remain in position and function effectively.
The whole documentary was deliberate nonsense.
It mischaracterized WP as a chem weapon.
It greatly overstated its effects, lethality, and tactical usefulness (melting people inside of buildings).
A legitimate question is: Did we use it against civilians deliberately, or more vaguely, did we use it against military targets in close proximity to civilians without taking all feasible measures to limit civilian exposure.
If we used it deliberately against civilians, then the people responsible are guilty of a heinous crime. Period.
Considering the fact that Fallujans knew what was coming, had weeks to evacuate, and it is estimated that over 90% did evacuate, I think the ‘feasible measures’ test was met.
From what I have seen in most of these discussions is that the anti-US people finally boil their argument down to “This war is wrong.” That is a reasonable subjective point of view but it is hardly an excuse for the BS propaganda.
Oh and a few more points:
1. People who do not know what they are talking about really try to claim that WP is a chem weapon as per the CWC. This is demonstrably false as schedules a, b, and c that list chemicals covered under the CWC does include WP.
2. Wikipedia has some interesting info that basically confirms what I said above (although I did learn that it is even less dangerous than I thought). Far from being some mystery chem weapon cruelly deployed by the evil US, its just a rather banal harassment weapon. It definitely DOES NOT melt people.
Its the particles that burn. No mystery clouds that dissolve people. Oh — and regarding the lethality of the clouds of smoke:
It looks like it maight be a useful area denial weapon in an urban setting (rooftops, etc.):
Evil weapon:
So will sane people please chime in to confirm that the chem weapon, melted body claims are thoroughly debunked? Show some integrity people.
Charles– “Do you really want to take the position that the producers of the documentary, and all of the people behind it, do not know what a chemical weapon is?”
You should relax a little. You are going to give yourself a heart attack. I take the position that the documentary does not prove anything. I take the position that if individuals in Iraq witness what appears to be a crime, that they should do what they can to collect the type of evidence I listed earlier. And yes, I take the position that most journalists rarely seem to know much about anything besides journalism.
One thing I know for sure is that you are completely mistaken thinking that it is legal to use incendiaries intentionally as a weapon against people. If you do so, you are not only a criminal, but a pretty low individual. There are many legal weapons that are not acceptable for use against personnel and only for use against equipment and structures. If you took the type of briefings and classes that my units were regularly given then you must know this. I don’t know what the current training is like for instruction on war crimes, but it must be still given. I would be suprised if it wasn’t. Also, if the individual instructing the class indicated that a canteen someone is wearing fits the definition of equipment, I hope everyone realized it was just a joke.
You know, I was watching Democracy Now on the communist station Link TV and they had a telephone conference interview between the producer of the video, the SP4 in it and a LTC on the ground in Iraq. Both the producer and SP4 come across as pretty tweaky. However, the reason I mention it is because the LTC confirmed what I am telling you about the use of incendiaries on personnel. He said almost in the same words what I am telling you. He also made quite a few good points about the piece and raised some valid doubts. Even so, I still think this and other questionable incidents should be investigated because it will exonerate the innocent and hopefully find guilt if it exists.
I’m glad that you admit there are at least legitimate questions which need to be answered and I hope you support what I said about the need for an investigation.
You shouldn’t get so bothered by this video. We all know to take it with a grain of salt. If you make too much of a fuss about it, people will think you’re trying to hide something. Just note your objections and let it slide on. If you really want to complain about propaganda, let’s talk about Fox News which seems to spend their entire day trying to screw up people’s impression of reality. Now that would be a worthy cause. ;-)
“So will sane people please chime in to confirm that the chem weapon, melted body claims are thoroughly debunked? Show some integrity people.”
I already agreed that it doesn’t fit the chemical weapon criteria. Phosphorus will melt through skin all the way to the bone unless you find something to smother it with. While I can’t personally verify the ferocity with which it burns on skin, I have seen phosphorus burn and it isn’t something I’d really want to test on my own arm. You give it a shot and get back to me. ;-)
Jon,
Journalists know about journalism?
Then I need a better definition of journalism. Anyone with access to video/computer equipment and a willing sponsor does not necessarily make someone a journalist.
It is an important distinction to draw. Language matters. The truth does matter. That documentary was the lowest form of propaganda. Some propaganda relies upon the manipulation of true facts. This was just lie after lie presented as truth deliberately intended to mislead.
Please provide me with some evidence that WP cannot be used against enemy combatants. Some quote from a manual, or a weapons convention, or something.
The CCW specifies that it can be used against military objectives. Are there military objectives that mysteriously do not contain soldiers?
Maybe you are right and then I will concede the point. It will be interesting to see if you can be right factually. But give me some facts. I try to back up my arguments with authoritative facts. When this issue came up I was curious about the facts so I identified the governing documents and read them. As I suspected from the beginning, the documentary was wrong on all factual assertions. The more I read (weapons conventions, weapons descriptions, military specialists, etc.), the more the documentary stunk.
If presenting facts to discredit garbage propaganda that has obviously gotton traction because of its sensationalist claims, then do please call me “fussy.”
We can talk about FOX on another thread if you want. I don’t really have much to say on the matter. Perhaps you could present one of their stories based upon incorrect information, provide the real facts, and we can debate the issue.
Let’s settle this one first before you go off topic..