Stage two of the American plan in Iraq is just started.
Now it’s the time to prepare the American public to accept the fact that a civil Iraq war is an American interest.
In the coming days, Americans will see many of such programs (brain wash).
Source: “All-Out Civil War in Iraq: Could It Be a Good Thing?”
Bush said it also today very clear:
The days ahead in Iraq are going to be difficult and exhausting.
Source: Bush Says Iraqis Face Moment of ‘Choosing’
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Civil war, is it close, and is it really a disaster?
All his posts are very intelligent and well written.
His assumption is that the US could mitigate a civil war which is probably wrong.
While it would ‘remove the masks’ as he claims, the bloodletting would be intollerable and once it starts it would probably have to run its full course. This could mean millions dead.
The US would probably leave if there was no government to support.
LB,
Your idea that this would benefit the US and therefore the US is behind it is totally wrong. It would mean the utter failure of Bush’s strategic campaign to try to reshape the ME.
The truth is, since your main goal is to see Bush humiliated at any cost, you are the one who probably wants a civil war — not Bush.
Charles just because you don’t think chaos or what ever you may call it in Iraq will not benefit the U.S that does not make it a wrong theory. It just mean you don’t’ think it’s correct.
You better start respecting the iraqis on this blog, we are the Iraqis you say you care so much about. And right now the only thing I see from your comments are that you are anti Iraqis. You are anti Iraqis.
I think you and LB wouldn’t know what was good for Iraq if it came to your ‘former’ country, overthrew its dictator, and sacrificed life/limb and billions of dollars to help establish a normal democratic government and the rule of law.
Its sad how you, who claims to love Iraq, do your utmost to spread rumors and lies and dedicate yourself to undermining the government. However imperfect the US is, and it is imperfect, as is the Iraqi government, it seems you would prefer to toss it all out the window.
Charles I said respect us Iraqis remember that. No matter what you think or feel we are Iraqis not YOU, so if you are honest show it, show us that you respect us. Stop your mantra you are not fooling anyone here, respect us and show us that you are honest.
I don’t think it is correct because it contradicts our goals, and would offer the US no benefit. In fact, it would damage/destroy what we are trying to accomplish. It would mean that the billions of dollars and thousands of lives lost would have been for nothing. Iraq might end up in the hands of AQ or Iran or Baath.
It even contradicts your various conspiratorial goals.
The US would not be able to ‘steal’ oil or control the economy through sinister investments, etc.
Since there would be no benefits, and our strategic interests would be nullified. All for naught.
Connect the dots, if you care, before its too late.
Respect Charles, respect is the word.
You have shown your true colors. Why should I respect ALL Iraqis? You are just a person living in scandinavia. Should I respect Sadr? Or Saddam? Or AQ terrorists/sympathizers? Why lump everyone together when you yourselves are cutting eachothers throats?
No thanks. I will respect decent people with decent goals.
PS — Have I really been disrespectful? Or do you just dislike the fact that we disagree on almost everything? I think there was one blue moon day when we agreed on something. I don’t recall what exactly.
Even though I agree completely with Charles that this is in no way in our interest, I agree with LB that the administration is going to spin it that way regardless. It’s already started, the WH is in full damage control mode. The spin machine is up and running, and the milblogs have all gone silent. Thank god we still have Iraqi blogs to give us a glimpse of what is really happening on the ground. But how long will they last, I expect that is the situation gets any worse that the government will bring back the information ministry and make all the bloggers register.
Yes Charles you are disrespectful and arrogant; the country that I love you say I hate, the people I love you say I want to have a civil war. There are limits remember that, you say you care about Iraqis but you have not once convinced me that you do care about me or any other Iraqi on this blog in difficult times, you are disrespectful, arrogant and have not once tried to see things from our perspective and say hay sorry guys and girls.
I get news from my family in Iraq about how badly the U.S army behaves and they want it out, I get news from my family in Iraq and they tell me how the militia the U.S have trained and work with they terrorise people, you call this lies and rumours well its not; it’s the truth for us; that no arrogant comment denying it from you or any other can erase.
We do have family in Iraq, we do have the ability to read Iraqi newspapers and talk to other Iraqis so our idea about what is going on in Iraq is exceptionally much better then any other person who does not speak Arabic or does not have relatives inside Iraq.
“Respect Charles, respect is the word.”
No the word(s) are common courtsey; you think because you are Iraqi that earns you some sort of special status. It doesn’t, because you frequently fail to practice what you preach; therefore you get what you give.
Respect is earned like for those Iraqis that risk all to vote or who get up every morning wondering if someone is going to kidnap them or blow them up, and still they persist and hope.
Alright, I admit LB has earned my respect, mostly, even though she’s gone over the top to support the people who kill and destroy her beloved Iraq. At least she has paid her dues.
Oh, look, the racist, anti-Iraq, pro-war, pro-kkk, pro-lynching, xenophobic, ethnocentric, Islamophobic crowd is at it again — trying to silence an Iraqi because…well heck because she is an Iraqi!
See, Ladybird and Nadia, the whole reason M and Charles are here is not to learn about Iraqis or our culture. They are here to try to shove their ethnocentric agenda down our throats. First they invade and kill our people under the guise of democracy. (why didnt you liberate Saudi Arabia, or Egypt, or any of the other dictatorial regimes — ah yes, SA is already in your pockets and Egypt is your kind of dictatorship)
They are here so much one would think they were paid to be here … hint, hint. We are here because we seek solace in one another as Iraqis to try and make sense of the madness Bushco has introduced into our country.
These kind of people believe they are performing their patriotic ra ra ra duty by telling us Iraqis we are wrong about our own country.
Yes, what we have to say counts leagues more than what you think you know. You never lived in Iraq, you refuse to learn our language even tho I have asked you time and again to learn it to better understand us.
How many of you have even lived in the Middle East. I challenge you. Yallah, let’s see how brave you really are. Go and live in a Middle Eastern country and tell people you are American. What do you think will happen?
Nothing. People may ask you what you think of Bush. Let’s see how brave you are — tell them you support the wholesale destruction of the Iraqi people because they resist you.
You say you want to respect decent people with decent goals? We have told you we love our country and all its people — we believe that for us to move forward we must accept our pasts, forgive them and embrace a common, pluralistic future.
For you that is indecent because we don’t praise Bush as if he were a god all day. That makes us indecent.
And our goals? To see a free and fair society living and working together in Iraq? Yes, that is an indecent goal indeed.
Today, Iraq is on the verge of destruction and all you can do is continue to berate us. That reveals your racism.
Yes, it is racism. The kind of racism that championed lynchings and blamed the victim for the lynching.
Don’t respect us, we are not clamoring for your respect. Anyone who applauds what is happening in Iraq is a criminal in my eyes. I am sorry, if this were your country and it was being torn asunder, you would kill the person who caused it with your teeth.
Try and empathize if you can see beyond your hatred for all things that do not conform to your ideal of a perfect world.
Try and speak our language. Try and live our customs. Try and understand our heritage. Sitting somewhere in snow minnesota or new jersey does not make you an expert on our country. It makes you an imbecile, particularly when you dictate terms to us.
Keep it up. I promise to be here as much as I can to put the war crowd back in its place.
Nadia,
All of your comments are disrespectful to the US who has sacrificed billions of dollars and thousands of lives to help your country. But that’s fine. I understand that is a mental disorder in arab people that has been impressed since birth — ‘blame the US.’ That’s fine.
But in addition to spreading rumors and lies about the US, you also disrespect and undermine the government institutions that are being established that offer your country a decent, civilized future. You despise and disrespect the very people that the majority of Iraqis have chosen to lead them. It therefore follows that is a reflection on how much you respect those Iraqis.
What alternative have you ever proposed? If not democracy, with all of its faults, then what? Such shallow yapping means you are either not capable of understanding the stakes, or, that you are cynically misleading people down the path to destruction.
I support my government’s efforts to help the elected Iraqi government establish a decent soiety under the rule of law for all Iraqis. You don’t. what does that say?
I’m not just sorry — I actually support the people who are trying to help.
OK. That’s fine. But supporting the people engaged in violence just leads to more violence, escalates the conflict, and results in the potential for the complete collapse into civil war. You don’t think the US soldiers would prefer not to be shot at? Wouldn’t it be better to spend reconstruction funds on actual reconstruction, rather than security so the freedom foghters don’t murder the engineers and blow up the water purification plant? Won’t it be easier to ask the US to leave after things stabilize and people take to the streets peacefully and demand withdrawal? If the US then fails to leave THEN you can start thinking about a revolt, if all peaceful protests fail.
The US didn’t train the militia. The US is training the Iraqi military. If the military has been infiltrated by militia, we cannot control that. If sunnis do not participate in the military and reject the political process, then its logical that their legitimate weight in government institutions will be less. That was their choice.
Only the partial truth. You focus on particular mistakes/errors made by US, but deliberately ignore the big picture.
M,
You do realize that LB lives in northern Europe (NLD?), and that even though she could have voted in absolute peace and security, she chose not to.
TAI,
Your comments are stupid and warrant nothing further from me.
Charles,
I have been here from about the second post LB ever made. I know she does not live in Iraq; I also know she voted the first time around and has not since. That is her right, but she fails to recognize the importance and rights of all those Iraqis that did vote and are in opposition to her views. She has been most helpful in helping me to understand Iraq and Iraqis better, and in the beginning, honestly answered any of my questions. I realize her heart is breaking over what is happening in Iraq. I think she knows better than to post the drivel she does; but it fits in with her peace activist, non violence and anti-war, any war, background. She has been consistent about that from day one. I think she is being dishonest with herself and all the rest of us about things, because she does understand Iraqis. She knows full well Iraqis could never free themselves from Saddam. She knows full well the danger of the religious freaks, the politics involved and the outside influences from Iran and Syria. She understands how the different ethnic groups inside of Iraq feel about each other and the potential for disaster. So knowing Iraqis as well as she does, her current stance of insurgents good..Iraqis bad is surprising. Do you suppose she is writing Fox news consultants talking points?
Charles and M
I don’t think you both are members of KKK, I am sure you are.
To say the truth, I don’t care about your respect and as we say in Iraq “أنت و قندرتي”
M
Why don’t you shut up and go the hell out of here?
Touched a nerve did I LB. Guess I had you figured wrong all along, and that you are exactly what you appear to be. As they say, you can dish it out, but can’t take it. Sucks to be you. Why don’t you have one of your boys block me, and then you don’t have to listen to anything buy yourself and you cronies.
No you are just too stupid to be here
TAI,
Congratulations! That is probably the stupidist comment yet on this site. And believe me — that says a lot!
I’m a racist ‘blablabla foaming at mouth blablabla’ because I BELIEVE that Iraqis are capable of democracy and self government and that those goals should be supported? As someone fighting against those things, what does that make you?
Last I heard, those regimes (while oppressive), were not involved in the wholesale slaughter of their own citizens, led by murderous megalomaniacs who gassed their own people. I suppose one must prioritize. Are you saying that those regimes were worse, and greater threats to the region than Saddam? The unanimous UNSC has a different opinion than you.
I’m pretty sure you are treated better in the west than someone from the west would be treated in an arab country. You should be a spokesperson for the arab tourist bureau of multicultural tolerance! That’s a great point.
Let’s do a cultural exchange after the ‘freedom’ fighters, AQ, and the Sadrists are back in their boxes — ok?
That’s rather odd. All of your posts seem to support the freedom fighters who target and slaughter the Iraqi government and the people who chose to support the government (including US forces). Since they are in the majority, that means you are in the minority. And not just a political minority — but rather a violent, anarchist movement bent on the destruction of Iraqs institutions, infrastructure, and people. Or maybe you just didn’t quite understand it when we warned you that destroying the government would make things worse? Destroy the governmnet and you will be left with nothing but highly motivated extremists groups on either side that will drag your country through a bloody murderous civil war.
I don’t give a damn about what you think of Bush. I really don’t. The sad thing is your hatred of Bush far outweighs your love of Iraq. It has tainted your thinking. You missed the big picture.
You would blame Bush who gave you the first ever opportunity for freedom. I would blame the people who chose anarchy and destruction over the political process. I hope you like the taste of your own arm!
Iraq is a god damned tragedy. The last three years have been tragic. Every freedom fighter blowing every bomb in a market, or slaughtering recruits, has brought Iraq closer to the brink. That is what you fail to grasp. Or maybe you are beginning to understand it now?
Let’s hope and pray that it isn’t too late. Perhaps the fledgling institutions we have supported will survive to protect Iraq.
Charlie, you say:
nn
nn
That’s the problem, eh. How could you be pretty sure? Have you ever lived in oh…Cairo for example? Have you been to Maadi, a virtual US colony? Why don’t you find a few Americans who lived there and ask them how “badly” they were treated.
I, on the other hand, did live in Cairo. And in the US. In the US, if you have a long beard you are looked at as if you are about to wipe out humanity. If you wear any Islamic garb, hell, just forget it.
And I lived in Canada. And in Europe.
Once again, ethnocentric isolationism does not serve you. US media blasts the Arab as a terrorist this and murderer that. Arab media blasts US GOVERNMENT foreign policy. It can make the distinction between Americans and government.
Can anyone in the US make that distinction?
nn
nn Where? Who authorized regime change in Iraq? Who authorized invasion and occupation? Go read the SC resolutions. They warned of serious consequences if Iraq did not comply with SC resolutions on disarmament, and in March 2003, UNSCOM and the IAEA were refuting every US allegation against Iraq. That is why US puppet media ridiculed ELBaradei and Hans Blix.
Come on, try another one.
nn
nn
Really? Where? Or is that your read of things? What else have you read? Have you missed all the times I have called for a pluralistic government based on Jeffersonian democracy? Tsk, tsk.
nn
nn Describing the US military? Yes, I agree with you…they are a violent, racist, Islamophobic presence in Iraq.
What you don’t understand because you can’t read Arabic and never acknowledge that has simply made you seem incapacitated is Iraqi government=Jaafary=Daawa + Badr=Iran.
Why is this not registering with you? Almost ALL Iraqi bloggers are saying this, are you going around blasting them by your racist ethnocentric desrciptions.
The only institutions you built in Iraq are death squads and militia. And yes, you did train militia. The people who trained as “iraqi army” are part of the militia.
You can’t get a handle on any of that because you simply will never be able to understand the situation as much as we do.
TAI,
I actually lived abroad much of my adult life. Now that I think about it, the only truly threatening situation I was ever in was Bain-Ulgi Mongolia. This part of Mongolia is Kazakh (muslim). Most of the people were great — quite friendly — normal — etc. But this is the only place were madmen tried to beat in my hotel door as I panick and try to unscrew the leg of the table to serve as a club to defend myself. The group entered the hotel, checked the roster to see which room I was in, and smashed the door in. Very lucky for me, and thank god not registered in the log book, was the fact that I had switched rooms across the hall earlier in the day because the shower had stopped working. After breaking into the room across the hall, tearing it up and not finding me, the police at last arrived and dragged them off.
Its funny though. They didn’t want to kill me because I was American, they wanted to do it because they were convinced I was Russian. Apparently they couldn’t imagine a caucasian in bain-ulgi who was not Russian. I should have taken the ministry of geology’s warning in ulan batar. They told me not to go there because they had not received official reports from them in 3 years…
I was comparing the regimes you offered as ‘more deserving’ of overthrow than Saddam’s. The UNSC consistantly declared Saddam a threat to regional security due to non-compliance with disarmament requirements, oppression, support for terrorism, etc. I’m sure you know this so don’t pretend otherwise.
Regarding the Iraqi government, it will be made up from the constituents that help form it. If the sunni extremists do not participate and actually try to destroy it, you shouldn’t be surprised that they are not represented very heavily.
That’s sweet. You mean after your freedom fighters kill the elected government and its supporters? After they succeed, who will give a damn what you want?
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