In my first editors letters (criminal acts in politics) I pretended that each American owes the world one million dollars. How come? Just try to count and try to know why bank systems, whole states, stock exchanges, old age funds will soon tumble in the emptiness of space….
Read the article:
Each American citizen owes the world one million dollars
For reference:
Rank Country Public debt
(% of GDP) Date of Information
1 Uruguay 793.40 June 2005 est.
2 Malawi 208.60 2005 est.
3 Japan 170.00 2005 est.
4 Lebanon 170.00 2005 est.
5 Jamaica 135.00 2005 est.
6 Nicaragua 130.00 2005 est.
7 Seychelles 129.70 2005 est.
8 Greece 108.90 2005 est.
9 Italy 107.30 2005 est.
10 Zambia 104.20 2005 est.
11 Singapore 102.00 2005 est.
12 Israel 101.00 2005 est.
13 Sri Lanka 98.50 2005 est.
14 Belgium 93.60 2005 est.
15 Egypt 93.60 2005 est.
16 India 82.00 2005 est.
17 Ghana 80.10 2005 est.
18 Sudan 79.00 2005 est.
19 Jordan 77.70 2005 est.
20 Philippines 77.40 2005 est.
21 Vietnam 75.50 2005 est.
22 Panama 73.20 2005 est.
23 Moldova 72.90 2005 est.
24 Morocco 72.30 2005 est.
25 Cyprus 72.00 2005 est.
26 Honduras 70.50 2005 est.
27 Cote d’Ivoire 70.40 2005 est.
28 Portugal 69.40 2005 est.
29 Argentina 69.00 June 2005
30 Germany 68.10 2005 est.
31 Turkey 67.50 2005 est.
32 Kenya 67.40 2005 est.
33 France 66.50 2005 est.
34 Cameroon 64.80 2005 est.
35 United States 64.70 2005 est.
36 Austria 63.30 2005 est.
37 Uganda 62.80 2005 est.
38 Hungary 60.90 2005 est.
39 Tunisia 58.70 2005 est.
40 Costa Rica 56.20 2005 est.
41 Netherlands 55.00 2005 est.
42 Pakistan 54.30 2005 est.
43 Switzerland 53.30 2005 est.
44 Serbia and Montenegro 53.10 2005 est.
45 Indonesia 52.60 2005 est.
46 Croatia 52.10 2005 est.
47 Bahrain 51.50 2005 est.
48 Dominican Republic 51.40 2005 est.
49 Sweden 50.30 2005 est.
50 Brazil 50.20 2005 est.
51 Spain 48.50 2005 est.
52 Malaysia 48.30 2005 est.
53 Poland 47.30 2005 est.
54 Papua New Guinea 47.10 2005 est.
55 Senegal 46.50 2005 est.
56 Bangladesh 46.10 2005 est.
57 El Salvador 45.80 2005 est.
58 Syria 45.00 2005 est.
59 Ecuador 44.90 2005 est.
60 Colombia 44.20 2005
61 United Kingdom 42.20 2005 est.
62 Finland 42.00 2005 est.
63 Peru 41.80 2005 est.
64 Trinidad and Tobago 41.40 2005 est.
65 Saudi Arabia 41.00 2005 est.
66 Angola 40.90 2005 est.
67 Namibia 39.60 2005 est.
68 Mexico 39.10 September 2005
69 Uzbekistan 39.00 2005 est.
70 Canada 38.70 2004–2005
71 South Africa 37.70 2005 est.
72 Macedonia 37.40 2005 est.
73 Qatar 36.70 2005 est.
74 Paraguay 36.10 2005 est.
75 Norway 36.00 2005 est.
76 Thailand 35.90 2005 est.
77 Yemen 35.90 2005 est.
78 Denmark 35.70 2005 est.
79 Iceland 34.00 2005 est.
80 Taiwan 33.30 2005 est.
81 Czech Republic 33.10 2005 est.
82 Bulgaria 32.40 2005 est.
83 Venezuela 32.00 2005 est.
84 Korea, South 30.10 2005 est.
85 Zimbabwe 30.10 2005 est.
86 Slovenia 29.90 2005 est.
87 Gabon 29.50 2005 est.
88 China 28.80 2005 est.
89 Ireland 27.50 2005 est.
90 Iran 27.50 2005 est.
91 Guatemala 26.90 2005 est.
92 Mauritius 26.20 2005 est.
93 Lithuania 21.40 2005 est.
94 New Zealand 21.40 2005 est.
95 Romania 21.10 2005 est.
96 Ukraine 18.00 2005 est.
97 Kuwait 17.60 2005 est.
98 United Arab Emirates 17.50 2005 est.
99 Slovakia 16.90 2005 est.
100 Australia 16.20 2005 est.
101 Russia 15.60 2005 est.
102 Algeria 14.80 2005 est.
103 Azerbaijan 13.90 2005 est.
104 Latvia 12.00 2005 est.
105 Nigeria 11.20 2005 est.
106 Kazakhstan 9.80 2005 est.
107 Chile 8.10 2005 est.
108 Libya 8.00 2005 est.
109 Oman 7.50 2005 est.
110 Botswana 7.30 2005 est.
111 Wallis and Futuna 5.60 NA
112 Tanzania 5.00 2005 est.
113 Estonia 3.80 2005 est.
114 Hong Kong 1.80 2005 est.
Do you have a link for this Charlie?
Why the Dollar Bubble is about to Burst http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/06/342746.html
Currently almost all oil buying and selling is in US-dollars through exchanges in London and New York. It is not accidental they are both US-owned.
The Wall Street crash in 1929 sparked off global depression andWorld War II. During that war the US supplied provisions and munitions to all its allies, refusing currency and demanding gold payments in exchange.
By 1945, 80% of the world’s gold was sitting in US vaults. The dollar became the one undisputed global reserve currency — it was treated world-wide as ‘safer than gold’. The Bretton Woods agreement was established.
The US took full advantage over the next decades and printed dollars like there was no tomorrow. The US exported many mountains of dollars, paying for ever-increasing amounts of commodities, tax cuts for the rich, many wars abroad, mercenaries, spies and politicians the world over. You see, this did not affect inflation at home! The US got it all for free! Well, maybe for a forest or two.
Over subsequent decades the world’s vaults bulged at the seams andmore and more vaults were built, just for US dollars. Each year, theUS spends many more dollars abroad that at home. Analysts pretty much agree that outside the US, of the savings, or reserves, of all other countries, in gold and all currencies — that a massive 66% of this total wealth is in US dollars!
In 1971 several countries simultaeously tried to sell a small portion of their dollars to the US for gold. Krassimir Petrov, (Ph. D. in Economics at Ohio University) recently wrote, “The US Government defaulted on its payment on August 15, 1971. While popular spin told the story of ‘severing the link between the dollar and gold’, in reality the denial to pay back in gold was an act of bankruptcy by the US Government.” (1) The 1945 Bretton Woods agreement was unilaterally smashed.
The dollar and US economy were on a precipice resembling Germany in 1929. The US now had to find a way for the rest of the world to believe and have faith in the paper dollar. The solution was in oil, in the petrodollar. The US viciously bullied first Saudi Arabia and then OPEC to sell oil for dollars only — it worked, the dollar was saved. Now countries had to keep dollars to buy much needed oil. And the US could buy oil all over the world, free of charge. What a Houdini for the US! Oil replaced gold as the new foundation to stop the paper dollar sinking.
Since 1971, the US printed even more mountains of dollars to spend abroad. The trade defecit grew and grew. The US sucked-in much of the world’s products for next to nothing. More vaults were built.
Expert, Cóilínn Nunan, wrote in 2003, “The dollar is the de facto world reserve currency: the US currency accounts for approximately two thirds of all official exchange reserves. More than four-fifths of all foreign exchange transactions and half of all world exports are denominated in dollars. In addition, all IMF loans are denominated in dollars.” (2)
Dr Bulent Gukay of Keele University recently wrote, “This system of the US dollar acting as global reserve currency in oil trade keeps the demand for the dollar ‘artificially’ high. This enables the US to carry out printing dollars at the price of next to nothing to fund increased military spending and consumer spending on imports. There is no theoretical limit to the amount of dollars that can be printed. As long as the US has no serious challengers, and the other states have confidence in the US dollar, the system functions.” (3)
Until recently, the US-dollar has been safe. However, since 1990 western Europe has been busy growing, swallowing up central and eastern Europe. French and German bosses were jealous of the US ablility to buy goods and people the world over for nothing. They wanted a slice of the free cake too. Further, they now had the power and established the euro in late 1999 against massive US-inspired opposition across Europe, especially from Britain — paid for in dollars of course. But the euro succeeded.
Only months after the euro-launch, Saddam’s Iraq announced it was switching from selling oil in dollars only, to euros only — breaking the OPEC agreement. Iran, Russia, Venezuela, Libya, all began talking openly of switching too — were the floodgates about to be opened?
Then aeroplanes flew into the twin-towers in September 2001. Was this another Houdini chance to save the US (petro)dollar and the biggest financial/economic crash in history? War preparations began in the US. But first war-fever had to be created — and truth was the first casualty. Other oil producing countries watched-on. In 2000 Iraq began selling oil in euros. In 2002, Iraq changed all their petro-dollars in their vaults into euros. A few months later, the US began their invasion of Iraq.
The whole world was watching: very few aware that the US was engaging in the first oil currency, or petrodollar war. After the invasion of Iraq in March 2003, remember, the US secured oil areas first. Their first sales in August were, of course, in dollars, again. The only government building in Baghdad not bombed was the Oil Ministry! It does not matter how many people are murdered — for the US, the petrodollar must be saved as the only way to buy and sell oil — otherwise the US economy will crash, and much more besides.
In early 2003, Hugo Chavez, President of Venezuela talked openly of selling half of its oil in euros (the other half is bought by the US). On 12 April 2003, the US-supported business leaders and some generals in Venezuela kidnapped Chavez and attempted a coup. The masses rose against this and the Army followed suit. The coup failed. This was bad for the US.
In November 2000 the euro/dollar was at $0.82 dollars, its lowest ever, and still diving, but when Iraq started selling oil in euros, the euro dive was halted. In April 2002 senior OPEC reps talked about trading in euros and the euro shot up. In June 2003 the US occupiers of Iraq switched trading back to dollars and the euro fell against the dollar again. In August 2003 Iran starts to sell oil in euros to some European countries and the euro rises sharply. In the winter of 2003–4 Russian and OPEC politicians talked seriously of switching oil/gas sales to the euro and the euro rose. In February 2004 OPEC met and made no decision to turn to the euro — and yes, the euro fell against the dollar. In June 2004 Iran announced it would build an oil bourse to rival London and New York, and again, the euro rose. The euro stands at $1.27 and has been climbing of late. See the European Central Bank history of the euro/dollar: http://www.ecb.int/stats/exchange/eurofxref/html/eurofxref-graph-usd.en.html#1999
But matters this month became far, far worse for the US dollar. On 5th May Iran registered its own Oil Bourse, the IOB. Not only are they now selling oil in euros from abroad — they have established an actual Oil Bourse, a global trading centre for all countries to buy and sell their oil!
In Chavez’s recent visit to London he talked openly about supporting the Iranian Oil Bourse, and selling oil in euros. When asked in London about the new arms embargo imposed by the US against Venezuela, Chavez prophetically dismissed the US as “a paper tiger”.
Currently, almost all the world’s oil is sold on either the NYMEX, New York Mercantile Exchange, or the IPE, London’s International Petroleum Exchange. Both are owned by US citizens and both sell and buy only in US dollars. The success of the Iran Oil Bourse makes sense to Europe, which buys 70% of Iran’s oil. It makes sense for Russia, which sells 66% of its oil to Europe. But worse for the US, China and India have already stated they are very interested in the new Iranian Oil Bourse. If there is a tactical-nuclear strike on — deja-vu — ‘weapons of mass destruction’ in Iran, who would bet against a certain Oil Exchange and more, being bombed too?
And worse for Bush. It makes sense for Europe, China, India and Japan — as well as all the other countries mentioned above — to buy and sell oil in Euro’s. They will certainly have to stock-up on euros now, and they will sell dollars to do so. The euro is far more stable than the debt-ridden dollar. The IMF has recently highlighted US economic difficulties and the trade deficit strangling the US — there is no way out.
The problem for so many countries now is, how to get rid of their vaults full of dollars, before it crashes? And the US has bullied so many countries for so many decades around the world, that many will see a chance to kick the bully back. The US cannot accept even 5% of the world’s dollars — it would crash the US economy dragging much of the world with it, especially Britain.
To survive, as the Scottish Socialist Voice article stated, “the US, needs to generate a trade surplus to get out of this one. Problem is it can’t.” This is spot on. To do that they must force US workers into near slavery, to get paid less than Chinese or Indian workers. We all know that this will not happen.
What will happen in the US? Chaos for sure. Maybe a workers revolution, but looking at the situation as it is now, it is more likely to be a re-run of Germany post-1929, and some form of extreme-right mass movement will emerge.
Does Europe and China/Asia have the economic independence and strength to stop the whole world’s economies collapsing with the US? Their vaults are full to the brim with dollars.
The US has to find a way to pay for its dollar-imperialist exploitation of the world since 1945. Somehow, eventually, it has to account for every dollar in every vault in the world.
Bombing Iran could backfire tremendously. It would bring Iran openly into the war in Iraq, behind the Shiite majority. The US cannot cope even now with the much smaller Iraqi insurgency. Perhaps the US will feed into the Sunni v Shiite conflict and turn it into a wider Middle-East civil-war. However, this is so dangerous for global oil supplies. Further, they know that this would be temporary, as some country somewhere else, will establish a euro-oil-exchange. Perhaps in Brussels.
There is one ‘solution’ — scrap the dollar and print a whole new currency for the US. This will destroy 66% of the rest of the world’s savings/reserves in one swoop. Imagine the implications? Such are the desperate things now swimming around heads in the White House, Wall Street and Pentagon.
Another is to do as Germany did, just before invading Poland in 1938. The Nazis filmed a mock Polish Army attack on Germany, to win hearts and minds at home. But again, this is a finger in the dam. So, how is the US going to escape this time? The only global arena of total superiority left is military. Who knows what horrors lie ahead. A new world war is one tool by which the US could discipline its ‘allies’ into keeping the dollar in their vaults.
The task of socialists today is to explain to as many as possible, especially our class, that the coming crisis belongs purely to capitalism and (dollar) imperialism. Not people of other cultures, not Islam, not the axis of evil or their so-called WMDs. Their system alone is to blame.
The new Iranian Oil Bourse, the IOB, is situated in a new building on the free-trade-zone island of Kish, in the Persian Gulf. It’s computers and software are all set to go. The IOB was supposed to be up and running last March, but many pressures forced a postponement. Where the pressure came from is obvious. It was internationally registered on 5th May and supposed to open mid-May, but its opening was put off, some saying the oil-mafia was involved, along with much international pressure. Just google ‘pertroeuro’, and the story lies before you.
From now on, anyone in the know will wake up every morning and, even before coffee, will check out the latest exchange rate between the euro and dollar.
(1) The Proposed Iranian Oil Bourse (Krassimir Petrov, Jan 2006) http://www.countercurrents.org/us-petrov200106.htm
(2) Oil, Currency and the War on Iraq (Cóilínn Nunan, Scotland, Dec 2003) http://www.feasta.org/documents/papers/oil1.htm
(3) Petrodollar Became the Essential Basis for the US Economic Hegemoney in the 1970s. (Bulent Gokay, Keele University, May 2006) http://english.pravda.ru/topic/petrodollar-138/
Michael don’t be surprised that Charles link is from the CIA
Here it is
better trusted Rank Country Public debt, not connected to the CIA, with different data
Source
104 Afghanistan NA
104 Akrotiri NA
104 Albania NA
71 Algeria 37.40
104 American Samoa NA
104 Andorra NA
104 Angola NA
104 Anguilla NA
104 Antarctica NA
104 Antigua and Barbuda NA
104 Arctic Ocean NA
7 Argentina 118.00
104 Armenia NA
104 Aruba NA
104 Ashmore and Cartier Islands NA
104 Atlantic Ocean NA
94 Australia 17.40
33 Austria 64.20
92 Azerbaijan 18.90
104 Bahamas, The NA
34 Bahrain 63.80
104 Baker Island NA
63 Bangladesh 43.00
104 Barbados NA
104 Bassas da India NA
104 Belarus NA
14 Belgium 96.20
104 Belize NA
104 Benin NA
104 Bermuda NA
104 Bhutan NA
104 Bolivia NA
104 Bosnia and Herzegovina NA
100 Botswana 8.60
104 Bouvet Island NA
50 Brazil 52.00
104 British Indian Ocean Territory NA
104 British Virgin Islands NA
104 Brunei NA
65 Bulgaria 41.90
104 Burkina Faso NA
104 Burma NA
104 Burundi NA
104 Cambodia NA
28 Cameroon 69.10
104 Canada NA
104 Cape Verde NA
104 Cayman Islands NA
104 Central African Republic NA
104 Chad NA
96 Chile 12.80
78 China 31.40
104 Christmas Island NA
104 Clipperton Island NA
104 Cocos (Keeling) Islands NA
51 Colombia 51.80
104 Comoros NA
104 Congo, Democratic Republic of the NA
104 Congo, Republic of the NA
104 Cook Islands NA
104 Coral Sea Islands NA
42 Costa Rica 58.00
19 Cote d’Ivoire 74.80
66 Croatia 41.70
104 Cuba NA
104 Cyprus NA
104 Cyprus — Turkish area NA
73 Czech Republic 33.50
64 Denmark 42.50
104 Dhekelia NA
104 Djibouti NA
104 Dominica NA
37 Dominican Republic 61.10
104 East Timor NA
54 Ecuador 49.20
12 Egypt 102.70
66 El Salvador 41.70
104 Equatorial Guinea NA
104 Eritrea NA
101 Estonia 5.40
104 Ethiopia NA
104 Europa Island NA
104 European Union NA
104 Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas) NA
104 Faroe Islands NA
104 Fiji NA
56 Finland 46.80
29 France 67.70
104 French Guiana NA
104 French Polynesia NA
104 French Southern and Antarctic Lands NA
81 Gabon 29.30
104 Gambia, The NA
104 Gaza Strip NA
104 Georgia NA
31 Germany 65.80
104 Ghana NA
104 Gibraltar NA
104 Glorioso Islands NA
8 Greece 112.00
104 Greenland NA
104 Grenada NA
104 Guadeloupe NA
104 Guam NA
76 Guatemala 32.00
104 Guernsey NA
104 Guinea NA
104 Guinea-Bissau NA
104 Guyana NA
104 Haiti NA
104 Heard Island and McDonald Islands NA
104 Holy See (Vatican City) NA
22 Honduras 74.10
103 Hong Kong 2.10
104 Howland Island NA
41 Hungary 58.30
72 Iceland 35.90
38 India 59.70
104 Indian Ocean NA
44 Indonesia 56.20
84 Iran 27.00
104 Iraq NA
79 Ireland 31.20
10 Israel 104.50
9 Italy 105.60
4 Jamaica 146.10
104 Jan Mayen NA
3 Japan 164.30
104 Jarvis Island NA
104 Jersey NA
104 Johnston Atoll NA
15 Jordan 85.80
104 Juan de Nova Island NA
95 Kazakhstan 13.70
20 Kenya 74.30
104 Kingman Reef NA
104 Kiribati NA
104 Korea, North NA
90 Korea, South 21.30
80 Kuwait 29.60
104 Kyrgyzstan NA
104 Laos NA
97 Latvia 11.80
2 Lebanon 177.90
104 Lesotho NA
104 Liberia NA
99 Libya 8.80
104 Liechtenstein NA
85 Lithuania 25.20
104 Luxembourg NA
104 Macau NA
91 Macedonia 20.00
104 Madagascar NA
1 Malawi 228.30
60 Malaysia 45.40
104 Maldives NA
104 Mali NA
104 Malta NA
104 Man, Isle of NA
104 Marshall Islands NA
104 Martinique NA
104 Mauritania NA
82 Mauritius 29.20
104 Mayotte NA
88 Mexico 23.50
104 Micronesia, Federated States of NA
104 Midway Islands NA
35 Moldova 63.40
104 Monaco NA
104 Mongolia NA
104 Montserrat NA
25 Morocco 70.20
104 Mozambique NA
70 Namibia 38.50
104 Nauru NA
104 Navassa Island NA
104 Nepal NA
45 Netherlands 55.80
104 Netherlands Antilles NA
104 New Caledonia NA
89 New Zealand 22.10
26 Nicaragua 69.50
104 Niger NA
91 Nigeria 20.00
104 Niue NA
104 Norfolk Island NA
104 Northern Mariana Islands NA
74 Norway 33.10
98 Oman 10.30
104 Pacific Ocean NA
24 Pakistan 71.40
104 Palau NA
104 Palmyra Atoll NA
27 Panama 69.20
39 Papua New Guinea 59.30
104 Paracel Islands NA
69 Paraguay 39.20
61 Peru 44.10
21 Philippines 74.20
104 Pitcairn Islands NA
53 Poland 49.90
36 Portugal 61.50
104 Puerto Rico NA
104 Qatar NA
104 Reunion NA
87 Romania 23.60
83 Russia 28.20
104 Rwanda NA
104 Saint Helena NA
104 Saint Kitts and Nevis NA
104 Saint Lucia NA
104 Saint Pierre and Miquelon NA
104 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines NA
104 Samoa NA
104 San Marino NA
104 Sao Tome and Principe NA
18 Saudi Arabia 75.00
46 Senegal 55.20
16 Serbia and Montenegro 80.00
6 Seychelles 122.80
104 Sierra Leone NA
13 Singapore 102.50
57 Slovakia 46.60
77 Slovenia 31.50
104 Solomon Islands NA
104 Somalia NA
59 South Africa 45.90
104 South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands NA
104 Southern Ocean NA
48 Spain 53.20
104 Spratly Islands NA
11 Sri Lanka 104.30
17 Sudan 79.70
104 Suriname NA
104 Svalbard NA
104 Swaziland NA
52 Sweden 51.60
43 Switzerland 57.20
76 Syria 32.00
75 Taiwan 32.40
104 Tajikistan NA
102 Tanzania 5.00
55 Thailand 47.60
104 Togo NA
104 Tokelau NA
104 Tonga NA
47 Trinidad and Tobago 54.40
104 Tromelin Island NA
40 Tunisia 59.20
20 Turkey 74.30
104 Turkmenistan NA
104 Turks and Caicos Islands NA
104 Tuvalu NA
23 Uganda 73.90
86 Ukraine 24.70
93 United Arab Emirates 17.60
68 United Kingdom 39.60
32 United States 65.00
104 Uruguay NA
67 Uzbekistan 41.50
104 Vanuatu NA
62 Venezuela 43.10
30 Vietnam 65.90
104 Virgin Islands NA
104 Wake Island NA
104 Wallis and Futuna NA
104 West Bank NA
104 Western Sahara NA
104 World NA
58 Yemen 46.40
5 Zambia 127.50
49 Zimbabwe 52.30
Last USA dept
8,382,815, 188, 196, 52
Source
Nice job LB,
From the point of view of the articles claims, your numbers aren’t really so different. The point is, while the US has a high public debt, it is not that special compared to other countries not targeted by the author.
Uh oh — check out the disclaimer at the bottom of LB’s link.
This page of Public debt ranking of countries is based on figures from the 2005 CIA world factbook. As a rule the Public debt data used to rank the countries is as of January 2005.
Sorry didn’t read the disclaimer…
It’s not trusted then
country debt gdp debt/gdp
World 38,540,000,000,000 60,710,000,000,000 0.634821282
US 8,837,000,000,000 12,360,000,000,000 0.714967638
EU 22,540,962,100,000 12,180,000,000,000 1.850653703
These numbers look odd. I think there are too many zeros somewhere. I think the UK debt amount is too high. Someone else run the numbers and compare US and EU public debt/gdp.
Here is another source putting EU public debt on par with US.
perroquet,
You can only hope…
The Debt To the Penny
Current Amount
06/14/2006 $8,375,365,051,008
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm
Around 290 million yanquis I think, makes $28,880.57 for each and every one of them.
US GDP $ 12,360,000,000,000 http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html
US public debt as a proportion of GDP equals 67.76%
“Michael don’t be surprised that Charles link is from the CIA”
you guys didnt know charles is with the CIA? its his job to watch subversive blogs and to help stop the flow of information. he has already taken action as a matter of fact. a christian fundamentalist sect in demmark has decapitated KB. it was all a setup.……
michael’s article read”
“Another is to do as Germany did, just before invading Poland in 1938. The Nazis filmed a mock Polish Army attack on Germany, to win hearts and minds at home.”
uh no…by not appearing as the aggressor it was hoped that war with britain and france could be avoided. having seized both czechoslavakia and austria without a fight the nazis hoped to do the same with poland. they also signed an agreement with the soviets to forestall intervention from the east. few germans wanted war in 1939 and the nazi press wasnt going to change that.
this had much less to do with domestic sentiment than this guy lets on.…why did you have this highlighted michael?
and why is this bolshevik stooge so worried about world wars? the socialists did nothing to stop the 1st and 2nd.
Right Wing extremists writes.“having seized both czechoslavakia and austria without a fight the nazis hoped to do the same with poland. they also signed an agreement with the soviets to forestall intervention from the east. few germans wanted war in 1939 and the nazi press wasnt going to change that. ”
You seem to know little about history. Britain, and France I believe, made clear to Germany that war would be declared if Germany attacked Poland, that’s why the UK entered the war.
The Nazis played the same cards as the Americans have, repeat lies over and over again and eventually a large proportion of the population start to believe them.
Perroquet read THAT chapter several times.
It is obvious he is a left wing subversive whose only goal is to promote the socialist agenda by attacking the US. The topic doesn’t even matter. The goal remains the same. He repeats lies over and over and his defense is to repeat the lies over and over.
Another example Charlie? The US Government/Army led by the mass murderer Bush are renowned for lying. Many times in the first instance they tried to deny atrocities only to be forced to confess.
The debt to the penny.
So what is the EU number? Is it significantly different? Perroquet?
I’m all for lowering the debt bit by bit within reason.
I see no point in harping on the US as some special demon when there are plenty of other countries in a similar boat. Why are they completely ignored?
Japan, Greece, Belgium, Italy, France, and Germany have higher debt rations. Austria and Portugal are right up there too.
The point is, people with insincere motives will parrot nasty propaganda to whoever is dumb enough to listen.
Perroquet,
I debunked each and every one of your obtuse claims already. Point by point. You were incapable of responding other than to repeat the same claim that ‘Bush lied.’ Your inability to respond makes it quite clear that there is no viable response. Your absurd claims fall apart as soon as anyone applies even the most basic analysis.
But we have all seen your strategy:
Charlie I lost interest in your “loony tunes” version of reality some time ago. You would be willing to deny the Pope is a Catholic if you thought it would favour your aims.
In the real world no one trusts the US Government any more and with good reason. Even Colin Powell has confessed that he now feels embarrassed by the lies he told in the UN trying to get some sort of legality of the invasion of Iraq.
Mike said:
“You seem to know little about history. Britain, and France I believe, made clear to Germany that war would be declared if Germany attacked Poland, that’s why the UK entered the war.”
haha. yes thats what they said. hitler had reason to believe they were full of shit. btw, they then fought the “phony war” and sat on their asses for months. read a book instead of your bolshevik rags mike. it might help you learn.
“The Nazis played the same cards as the Americans have, repeat lies over and over again and eventually a large proportion of the population start to believe them. ”
are you going to actually come up with a real arument or just keep repeating bush=nazis with no evidence?
Perroquet is the one who should study up on his history a bit better.
Hitler had already seen how France/UK had given up Czechoslovakia without a fight. His bluff and bluster had worked every time since reoccupying the Ruhr. He knew war was coming (because he was starting it), and he was ready for it, but he certainly hoped the UK/France would again shy away from open conflict. He did not want to fight in the west. His primary strategic goals were in the east.
Japan, Greece, Belgium, Italy, France, and Germany have higher debt rations.
“Rations” LOL. Nevertheless the CIA figures you gave were not totals of public debt but the ratio of public debt to GDP.
But that’s not really the insurmountable problem that the USA is faced with, that’s due to the trade deficit and falling confidence in the US$, the EU by the way has a surplus.
Hitler had already seen how France/UK had given up Czechoslovakia without a fight.
I think Hitler knew that the British and the French were serious about what the consequences would be when he invaded Poland. He could however rest assured that the USA would stand on the sidelines shaking with fear about getting involved in a real war.
charles said:
“Hitler had already seen how France/UK had given up Czechoslovakia without a fight. His bluff and bluster had worked every time since reoccupying the Ruhr. He knew war was coming (because he was starting it), and he was ready for it, but he certainly hoped the UK/France would again shy away from open conflict. He did not want to fight in the west. His primary strategic goals were in the east.”
exactly. he was hoping to move against poland while the allies sat on their hands…AGAIN
I’m trying to understand if perroquet is trying to push the first version — i.e. that Powell admitted to lying and then felt bad about it, or the second version that came out after the first was trashed — i.e. vague language referring to the first version and vaguley making the same claim, without actually making it. I think he is still pushing the first. He didn’t get the memo.
The truth is, Colin Powell was hopping mad and disgusted with the intelligence community that provided him with the evidence that formed the basis of his testimony. He was upset because he knows that he will forever be the one associated with making the claims most of which turned out to be incorrect. As a soldier, his honor is an important thing and this event will be remembered as a blotch upon his otherwise excellent record.
He wasn’t upset about lying because he didn’t lie. He was upset about the fact that his claims were based on faulty intelligence.
” think Hitler knew that the British and the French were serious about what the consequences would be when he invaded Poland. He could however rest assured that the USA would stand on the sidelines shaking with fear about getting involved in a real war. ”
wow what a display of ignorance.….the french and brits fought the “phony war” and did nothing until germany invaded belguim and france.
sorry mike…the american left (like the euro left before them) did not want the US to enter the war.
But as I pointed out a few days ago, in the case of Hussein Kamel’s testimony it wasn’t a case of faulty intelligence at all, it was a case of his testimony being deliberately fabricated. i.e. where he said that all of Iraq’s WMD had been destroyed on or before 1995 it was claimed that he said the WMD still existed.
It’s possible of course with Powell that he was not a party to the subterfuge in which case he must just be stupid, he could easily have checked for himself.
sorry mike…the american left (like the euro left before them) did not want the US to enter the war.
I don’t think you can blame the American left even if there was such a thing. It’s another case of the American right not being interested in war unless there’s a few bucks in it for them. Didn’t stop Bush’s granddaddy trading with the enemy though. :)
mike said
“I don’t think you can blame the American left even if there was such a thing. It’s another case of the American right not being interested in war unless there’s a few bucks in it for them. Didn’t stop Bush’s granddaddy trading with the enemy though.”
ill take that as an admission that you were wrong.…btw those smileys are really really gay. seriously mike.…really gay
ill take that as an admission that you were wrong….btw those smileys are really really gay. seriously mike….really gay.
In that case you are going to be disappointed. Try Charlie. :)
As I pointed out to you rather exhaustively, the only thing ‘proven’ by Kamal’s testimony was that Saddam had a strategy of deliberate non-compliance. Kamal ‘alleged’ that certain bioweapons programs had not been disclosed. This was ‘proven’ when Saddam turned over the docs in his most recent ‘all inclusive’ report. I think he made about 10 of those. Kamal alleged that Saddam may have destroyed all? or most? of his weapons in early 90’s. But Saddam never proved this.
Unilateral destruction was a violation of the cease fire agreement anyway.
So you are wrong again perroquet.
Kamal’s various testimonies proved only that Saddam had deliberate strategy of deception.
That deception in itself is a violation ofthe cease fire agreeement.
One more important thing that Kamal ‘proved’:
That even in the 5th year of inspections, the inspectors had no friggin clue about Saddam’s bio weapons programs.
That proved conclusively that inspections could NEVER be relied upon to find things that weren’t disclosed to them. Hence, an enormous amount of value was placed on whether or not Saddam was considered as acting in good faith or not. The only thing that could have saved Saddam would have been an absolute and fundamental turnaround in his behavior. Total openness. Total compliance. Overt good faith efforts to prove his good intentions.
He chose the opposite.
It’s “loony tunes stuff” Charlie
In the transcript of the interview, Kamel states categorically:
“I ordered destruction of all chemical weapons. All weapons — biological, chemical, missile, nuclear were destroyed“
(p. 13).
Kamel specifically discussed the significance of anthrax, which he portrayed as the “main focus” of the biological programme (pp.7–8). Smidovich asked Kamel: “were weapons and agents destroyed?”
Kamel replied: “nothing remained”.
He confirmed that destruction took place “after visits of inspection teams. You have important role in Iraq with this. You should not underestimate yourself. You are very effective in Iraq.” (p.7)
Kamel added: “I made the decision to disclose everything so that Iraq could return to normal.” (p.8)
Furthermore, Kamel describes the elimination of prohibited missiles: “not a single missile left but they had blueprints and molds for production. All missiles were destroyed.” (p.8)
On VX, Kamel claimed: “they put it in bombs during last days of the Iran-Iraq war. They were not used and the programme was terminated.” (p.12).
Ekeus asked Kamel: “did you restart VX production after the Iran-Iraq war?”
Kamel replied: “we changed the factory into pesticide production. Part of the establishment started to produce medicine […] We gave insturctions [sic] not to produce chemical weapons.” (p.13).
Despite the significance of these claims, it was not known that Kamel made this assertion until February 2003. Kamel’s claim was first carried on 24 February 2003 by Newsweek, who reported that Kamel told U.N. inspectors that Iraq had destroyed its entire stockpile of chemical and biological weapons and banned missiles, as Iraq claims (Newsweek, 3/3/03). Newsweek reported that the weapons were destroyed secretly, in order to hide their existence from inspectors, in the hopes of someday resuming production after inspections had finished. The CIA and MI6 were told the same story, Newsweek reported.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1845
Kamel’s defection has been cited repeatedly by George W. Bush and leading administration officials as evidence that 1) Iraq has not disarmed; 2) inspections cannot disarm it; and 3) defectors such as Kamel are the most reliable source of information on Iraq’s weapons.
Bush declared in an October 7, 2002 speech: “In 1995, after several years of deceit by the Iraqi regime, the head of Iraq’s military industries defected. It was then that the regime was forced to admit :) that it had produced more than 30,000 liters of anthrax and other deadly biological agents. The inspectors, however, concluded that Iraq had likely produced two to four times that amount. This is a massive stockpile of biological weapons that has never been accounted for, and capable of killing millions.”
Secretary of State Colin Powell’s February 5 presentation to the U.N. Security Council claimed: “It took years for Iraq to finally admit that it had produced four tons of the deadly nerve agent, VX. A single drop of VX on the skin will kill in minutes. Four tons. The admission only came out after inspectors collected documentation as a result of the defection of Hussein Kamel, Saddam Hussein’s late son-in-law.”
In a speech last August (8/27/02), Vice President Dick Cheney said Kamel’s story “should serve as a reminder to all that we often learned more as the result of defections than we learned from the inspection regime itself.”
Deputy National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley recently wrote in the Chicago Tribune (2/16/03) that “because of information provided by Iraqi defector and former head of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction programs, Lt. Gen. Hussein Kamel, the regime had to admit in detail how it cheated on its nuclear non-proliferation commitments.”
The only loon here is the one who would believe one of Saddam’s goons at face value.
Oh gee! Really? Ya think so? Gosh I feel so darn ‘effective’ now! I’m gonna go home and tell my wife how effective you think I am… I mean, we didn’t actually find evidence of the programs that we now know existed, but still, thanks for the compliments!
Except of course for the one’s they continued to develop in the 90’s that the UN repeatedly warned them on. Oh, and also except for those prohibited missiles that were identified before the war. and they were not supposed to retain molds/plans anyway.
That’s odd. Does he mean that without specific instructions to the contrary, factory worker bees would simply make wmd by default?
We had no conclusive proof to the contrary, since Saddam chose to destroy most of his weapons in secret in violation of the cease fire terms.
As Kamal proved, we weren’t going to find anything that they were trying to hide from us.
True as far as that goes. We didn’t have anything ‘more’ reliable. The inspectors proved themselves incapable of finding programs that were being hidden. If Kamal hadn’t disclosed these programs, we never would have known.
The rest of your quotes simply reinforce the point.
Oh, and here’s another twist that is far more plausible:
How about sending Kamal abroad to ‘defect’ and reveal what Saddam wanted him to reveal? They cough up some bits of programs, hope the world takes the bait, backs off, and then let’s Saddam resume his programs? That is far more consistant with Saddam’s deceitful and duplicitous tactics. Of course poor Kamal didn’t realize that Saddam really did have to kill him to convince the west that he was legit.
If Kamal had really defected and left his family behind in Iraq, knowing Saddam’s brutality and treatment of people he didn’t trust, do you really think he would have returned?
That was certain death.
I think you missed the point Charlie, that being that Kamel was deliberately misquoted by the Bush regime. It’s not a question of whether he could be believed or not, it was a question of Kamal’s statement being deliberately misquoted.
Bush lied , not the slightest bit about it,it’s undeniable.
You mean this quote?
True
True
True
True. Unless you consider ‘accounted for’ to mean ‘anecdotal testimony claiming secret unilateral destruction in violation of unsc requirements from the head of the wmd programs who has been tasked with deceiving inspectors.’
Its like if you had past convictions of tax evasion, and the IRS came to do an audit. According to their records you had an income of $1,000,000.00. You only reported an income of $50,000.00.
When asked to explain the discrepency, you claim that in fact they are wrong and you never earned that much. When that story doesn’t work, you claim that you earned the money, but you didn’t really keep track of it, and you gave it all away, so they shouldn’t get all worried about it.
Your attorney provides that as evidence in court. “My client claims that while he did in fact earn the money, and is sorry for lying about it earlier, that he in fact did give it away, but has no records of that. I think we should take him at his word.”
Its one thing to worry about taxes, its quite another to worry about a brutal dictator with wmd who has used them in the past.
Once again blowing smoke Charlie. The fact is Bush lied about the statements Kamel had made.
Charlie writes “It was then that the regime was forced to admit that it had produced more than 30,000 liters of anthrax and other deadly biological agents.
True”
The “regime” never admitted anything of the sort, the reality was that Kamel said “nothing remained”.
You know Charlie this is the reason why it’s really not worth discussing anything about Iraq with you, you are clearly prepared to swear black is white and to lie through your teeth rather than admit the truth.
Having ‘had’ produced is not inconsistant with the claim that ‘nothing remained.‘
For nothing to ‘remain’, it must have at one time existed. Otherwise how could it have been destroyed? All we can discern conclusively is that the material was produced. The question remains ‘what happened to it?’ Kamal’s claims are not conclusive as they are not verifyable. This is typical — and deliberate.
But do tell. What did the 1995 ‘complete and final disclosure #8′ admit to after Kamal’s defection? Did they admit to lying about their programs? Are there any formal accountings of the raw materials and final products, with strictly controlled chain of custody as would NECESSARILY BE THE CASE WHEN DEALING WITH THESE TYPES OF MATERIALS (even if you are a brutal dictator you don’t fuck around with this stuff. And you can be sure Saddam had things tightly controlled)? Was the final link in the chain of custody the un inspectors as required by the cease fire agreement? If not, then its just Saddam’s word against the rest of the world.
You can pretend that Kamal’s claims have some special value even after he admitted to deceiving the UN for years. But he is just a guy with a vested interest who made claims. That is nothing new.
You are trying hard to split hairs here. But the truth is that up until his overthrow and US verification of his disarmament, no one was sure he had disarmed.
You can argue that containment was better than war, and that he had been ‘mostly’ disarmed ‘probably’, but don’t pretend that Saddam was considered in compliance with unsc requirements by the unsc prior to the outbreak of hostilities in 2003.
This link also provides some interesting reference points.
Looks like it might be a race to the bottom.
Since we owe everyone in Europe 1 million, and they all owe us 1 million, let’s just cancel them out.
Charles, the thing that strikes me in your argument with Michael is that you want to have it both ways. You site Kamal’s testimony to support your assertion that inspections don’t work, but you dismiss him as a lying double agent when his claims about the destruction of WMDs are raised.
And you really didn’t answer the question about Bush’s lies. You paint Bush as a victim of bad intel, but he clearly left out the part of Kamal’s testimony that contradicted his rationale for war, as he did with much of the other evidence. If you’re not willing to admit that he lied, would you at least agree that Bush selectively cited the evidence?
Jarn,
The ‘double agent’ part was not serious. But again, it is even more credible than msot of the conspiracy theories posted here.
You are failing to identify a key distinction here between ‘testimony’ and ‘proof’. Kamal’s testimony was not considered self sufficient. He disclosed that Saddam had deliberately hidden key programs. This is damning evidence to be sure, but the deceptions were only proven when Saddam officially revealed them after Kamal’s defection. It wasn’t based on Kamal’s testimony alone.
Kamal’s testimony that ‘everything’ was destroyed is nice testimony, but it doesn’t prove anything.
Inspectors had been dealing with Saddam for years and they knew he was not disclosing everything. Kamal’s testimony supported their first hand experience. Saddam’s disclosures then proved it unequivocally.
Kamal’s statements that ‘everything had been destroyed’ were just words. There was no proof of this.
At the end of GWI, Saddam agreed to:
1. disclose everything;
2. cooperate with inspectors to show them everything;
3. destroy everything under UN supervision.
He N E V E R did this. People will try to rewrite history because stockpiles were not found in 2003, but the basic argument remains valid.
In 1998, the inspectors concluded unanimously that samples of warheads sent to laboratories for analysis contained weaponized vx. This was in direct contradiction to Saddam’s disclosures.
Charles, I’m not questioning that Saddam had WMDs or that he lied about them. I said that Bush selectively used Kamal’s testimony and ignored the rest. Do you disagree?
If you mean to say that Bush used the parts of Kamal’s testimony that were verified, and discounted the parts that weren’t verified (or that were actually contradicted by Saddam’s actions), then absolutely.
Does that somehow surprise you?
Char lie we’ve been over this many times, it’s not a question of whether Kamel’s testimony was true or false, although history of course has proved his statements to be correct, it’s a question of Bush deliberately misquoting Kamel to give the complete opposite meaning.
For you to try and defend this obvious fact rather makes your comments on this and any other subject totally valueless.
Char lie “If you mean to say that Bush used the parts of Kamal’s testimony that were verified, and discounted the parts that weren’t verified (or that were actually contradicted by Saddam’s actions), then absolutely”.
THE REALITY.
Kamel
Bush
Charles, what verification? Suspicion based on past experiences? Maybe I’m being picky, but I think we should have had our facts damn straight before launching a war, knowing that innocent people would die. That Bush ignored contradictory evidence is well documented. Are we playing a game of ‘emperor’s new clothes’?
Bush lied, Charles. That they were (glaring) lies of omission does not make them any less damning.