US Vice President Dick Cheney said in May that Russia was using oil and gas riches as “tools of manipulation and blackmail.”
The coalition forces especially carry the responsibility of ensuring security in Iraq, including the defense of foreign diplomatic missions and their personnel. We have more than once insisted to the command of the foreign military contingent that it take appropriate measures,
Russia will insist on convening an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council in the wake of a murder of four Russian diplomats by radical Islamic abductors in Iraq.
It will also insist that the UN Security Council issue an appropriate statement in connection with that heinous crime
President Vladimir Putin said at a meeting with Russian ambassadors on Tuesday.
Russia’s “close and constructive dialogue with Israel”
LB,
Since I am clearly not as smart as you, will you please iterate more clearly whichever implied conspiracy theory you are here insinuating?
Is it something about Cheney, oil, and the jooos?
Good post LB. As usual. I find myself agreeing with 97% of what you say. The other 3% is margin of error = )
Sister Ladybird, we are site for infomation on America crimes in Iraq. If you have news and information please email us. We want to keep archive of all things that happened to Iraqi people in last three years and more.
Allah bless you for good work you do.
Hi TAI
I emailed you, ask about you, did you get it???
Iraqi testimonies
I will
Not only in Iraq, all over the world
Hi LB,
Yeah, didn’t I reply?
Gosh, am sorry, I thought I did. Chinit hwaya makhbus.
= (
Moscow Blames U.S. for Russian Hostages Death in Iraq
http://mosnews.com/news/2006/06/27/russiablames.shtml
MosNews
Russia intends to keep in contact with the coalition forces to determine their level of responsibility in the death of the Russian diplomats earlier kidnapped in Iraq, Russian presidential envoy for international cooperation in fighting terrorism and transnational organized crime Anatoly Safonov quoted by Interfax has said.
First Vice-Speaker of the Russian State Duma, Lyubov Sliska, joined Safonov in blaming the coalition.
Charles — “When conspiracy theories combine logical fallacies with lack of evidence, the result is a world view known as conspiracism.”
From Wiki — “Throughout human history, political and economic leaders genuinely have been the cause of enormous amounts of death and misery, and they sometimes have engaged in conspiracies while at the same time promoting conspiracy theories about their targets. Hitler and Stalin would be merely the most prominent examples; there have been numerous others. In some cases there have been claims dismissed as conspiracy theories that later proved to have some basis in facts.”
You would suggest that conspiracies never occur, unless of course it is in your interests for there to be one. This mode of thinking would be illogical. History has borne out the fact that conspiracies do occur and the odds are especially high when great profit or power is concerned.
There is no doubt that crimes have been committed by this administration. They have waged an illegal war of aggression which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.
http://www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org/laws_and_treatıes_violated_by_pr.htm
Jeremy
First you must apologize
Jon,
That’s your opinion. Fine. It has no bearing on the truth or validity of the conspiracy theories posted on this site:
Zarqawi didn’t exist;
9/11 US inside job;
Etc.
I think the latest one is LB insinuating that the US kidnapped and beheaded the Russian diplomats.
This is classic conspiracism.
You can argue that Saddam could be contained. That the intelligence community was wrong. You can argue that various laws have been broken, or that mistakes have been made, etc. Those are all issues that revolve around potentially verifiable facts.
The ‘conspiracies’ selectively and vaguely connect disparate snippets of facts out of their context in the attempt to support a conclusion that was made before the ‘facts’ were even identified.
Do you see the difference?
Is it true that a captured AQ leader has confessed to Samarra bombing and killing female journalist?
Could this mean that another LB conspiracy theory bites the dust?
But wait, LB will follow the clinically expected methodology of a paranoid conspiracist and expand the conspiracy theory with additional and even more hyperbolic claims to keep her conspiracy together.
All I can say is that I hope this gets confirmed.
Also, ITM reports that 3 more insurgent groups, as well as dozens of sunni shiekhs are ready to come on board and denounce violence…
LB,
Dumb american Charles is still awaiting clarification.
Does this posting (thread topic) mean to insinuate that the US was behind the kidnapping and murder of the Russian diplomats???
Interesting.
I heard that Russia may be sending a spetznaz group to hunt down the people who murdered their diplomats.
Does LB think they will be going after Cheney?
Charles — “This is classic conspiracism.”
First off, who cares? What difference does it make what theories might rattle around in people’s brains. That’s like a side issue and I don’t pay it much attention. I have some theories myself, but not like I can do anything about it.
You are forgetting who started the whirlwind of bullshit. The Bush administration fabricated this entire situation we all find ourselves in. Bush betrayed the world. The result is that you have people, not necessarily believing every crackpot theory, but developing a general sense of paranoia where it becomes much easier to believe the worst.
“facts out of their context in the attempt to support a conclusion that was made before the ‘facts’ were even identified”
Yeah, I know. Those are called a “foregone conclusions”. You are doing the same thing. You operate under the mistaken belief that Iraq is a threat to the US and that we had the right to wage an illegal war of aggression which has killed hundreds of thousands of people.
“Do you see the difference?”
Yes. Your conclusions are killing lots of people.
Interesting point of view. So those people who concoct nutty conspiracies really do suffer from ‘Bush derangement syndrome’? Basically all of their conclusions can be discounted as being delusional and paranoid conspiracies. But according to you, that doesn’t matter.
Just don’t tell LB that you think she is an irrelevant nutball.
“So those people who concoct nutty conspiracies really do suffer from ‘Bush derangement syndrome’?”
To a certain extent, yeah. BDS would be clinically described as “having been lied to so much, you don’t trust anyone anymore”.
Ah, but the whole conspiracy about ‘having been lied to’ is yet another manifestation of BDS. So the problem is something deeper. People who suffer from this have in fact created for themselves a self reinforcing delusional construct.
From a pschological standpoint, the ‘outputs’ from this delusional construct have no necessary relation to whatever it was that generated the inclination to create pathological delusions.
It could be looked at as a simple formula:
A+B=11 is not necessarily valid. Especially when upon examination, the values attributed to A and B do not add up to 11. For those with BDS, ‘A’ might equal ‘rooster’ and ‘B’ might equal 22. For others, ‘A’ might equal 2 and ‘B’ might equal 22. This is closer to the mark, but upon examination it is clear that their ability to do simple math is wanting.
A healthy formula would be:
6+5=11 — or any other valid combination of numbers whose sum is 11.
Charles — “Ah, but the whole conspiracy about ‘having been lied to’ is yet another manifestation of BDS.”
Ah, I see. You’re still living under the illusion that Hussein really did have stockpiles of WMDs that he was about to attack the US with. You should stop watching Fox. You’re becoming detached from reality, which is just as bad as BDS.
“A+B=11 is not necessarily valid.”
Crap. Someone broke Charles’ brain and now he’s stuck on “babble”. ;-)
I have just realised i am doing what i hate people doing, but i guess i have reached my limit.
First of all i am not a military man, I am as my name descrbes a VET, i went to Iraq to help the Iraqi vets, I am also not American.
I can see Micheal has issues… really serious ones i think, but come on you once again go on about others actions and not the actions of the insurgents, terrorists or sick murderers who hack innocent peoples heads off with a blunt nife and say they are doing it for GOD, come on your telling me it is ok to do that!! what if the multinational forces were to do they same to Iraqi’s is that ok or will you bitch to the tv stations saying look what they do to us like school girls telling the teacher, grow up and take responsibilty for your actions and stop playing the poor hard done by routine.
Not all muslims are terrorists but most the terrorists so far have been muslims, what does that tell you?.
Yes the reasons to invade Iraq were dubious but hey lets move on and fix the problem.
Saying that how can you fix a problem with a people who still blame the jews for killing Christ, shit get over it!! the rest of the world has, move on.
I can see Micheal has issues… really serious ones i think, but come on you once again go on about others actions and not the actions of the insurgents, terrorists or sick murderers who hack innocent peoples heads off with a blunt nife and say they are doing it for GOD, come on your telling me it is ok to do that!!
Well perhaps you would prefer the electric chair, but unfortunately there’s no electricity, or perhaps lethal injection but unfortunately there’s no drugs.
what if the multinational forces were to do they same to Iraqi’s is that ok or will you bitch to the tv stations saying look what they do to us like school girls telling the teacher, grow up and take responsibilty for your actions and stop playing the poor hard done by routine.
The USA has tortured people to death over a period of months, at least beheading is a lot quicker than that.
Not all muslims are terrorists but most the terrorists so far have been muslims, what does that tell you?.
It tells me you are a racist nutcase, are you saying the IRA were Muslims, are you saying that the terrorists attacking Palestine right now are Muslims. The USA has caused terrorism by illegally invading a sovereign country and killing 250,000 Iraqis.
Yes the reasons to invade Iraq were dubious but hey lets move on and fix the problem.
The only way it can be fixed is for the NewWorldNazis to leave and that ain’t going to happen until the oil runs out.
Saying that how can you fix a problem with a people who still blame the Jews for killing Christ, shit get over it!! the rest of the world has, move on.
Who cares about the Jews killing Christ, I’m more concerned with the Jews killing Palestinians. I am also concerned that the Bolshevik/Communists which were almost entirely Jews killed over 30 million Christians and yet the only holocaust we are supposed to remember is one that allegedly happened in Germany which no one is allowed to investigate seriously.
Your joking right please tell me your joking!! ha ha i am suprised you have internet in the nut house you live in.
No I’m not joking “Vet”, have you accidentally injected yourself?
Iraq was illegally invaded, Iraqis have a right to resist that illegal invasion, now if that results in some deaths which are not aesthetically pleasing perhaps you should think about the people in Falluja when white phosphorus burnt their skin off.
If you are not a yanqui, where are you from? Obviously not English or you would know how to spell “knife” correctly.
I have to say I’m amuses by people like VET who refer to a few beheadings as if it’s a sign of barbarism. It’s actually a far more humane method of state execution that the methods used in the USA, such as lethal injection or the electric chair. The USA of course is second only to China in regards to the amount of state executions.
It’s also totally hypocritical to consider beheadings as barbaric but to totally overlook the fact that thousands were killed in Falluja with the use of white phosphors, literally burning the victims skin off although death may take hours. Nor forgetting of course the thousands of Iraqis being killed by the use of depleted uranium, not only now but many years in the future.
Except that the people the terrorists execute are truck drivers, election workers, students, doctors, etc.
They are innocent.
perroquet conveniently avoids that minor point.
Why am I not surprised?
Jon,
Why do you keep chasing yopur tail on this?
What the President said about Iraq is supported by the consensus of the intelligence community. It is supported by what previous administration with all of their ‘liberal’ advisors said.
The prewar intelligence failure was investigated by two bipartisan commissions and they confirmed many of the mistakes made by the IC, did a good job explaining about how they came about, and put to rest the accusations that ‘Bush lied’. That was like 2 friggin years ago, yet you still continue repeating it.
The bottom line is that Saddam did not comply with the initial cease fire agreement (not to mention a decades worth of angry letters from the UN, and the only way to respolve the issue was to remove Saddam from power.
Except that the people the terrorists execute are truck drivers, election workers, students, doctors, etc.
Apart from the fact there’s no evidence to support your accusations, certainly the majority of journalists murdered in Iraq were at the hands of the NewWorldNazis.
Char lie writes “The prewar intelligence failure was investigated by two bipartisan commissions and they confirmed many of the mistakes made by the IC, did a good job explaining about how they came about, and put to rest the accusations that ‘Bush lied’. That was like 2 friggin years ago, yet you still continue repeating it.”
Well apart from the fact the intelligence was correct but Bush prefered to pretend that Iraq had links with terrorism, WMD, had been seeking yellow cake from Niger etc. etc. As I pointed out many times, the evidence of Kamel confirmed that all WMD had been destroyed onb or before 1995, Bush quoted Kamel as having said Iraq still had WMD
Vet — “sick murderers who hack innocent peoples heads off with a blunt nife and say they are doing it for GOD, come on your telling me it is ok to do that!!”
I know you’re new here and don’t realize that the US waged an illegal war of aggression against a nation that posed no threat to it. It’s not the other way around as you are trying to suggest. George Bush has even claimed that “God” told him to do it. So, are you trying to claim that there is a difference somehow because we are Americans so we can kill whomever we like?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_aggression
http://www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org/laws_and_treatıes_violated_by_pr.htm
“what if the multinational forces were to do they same to Iraqi’s”
Are you implying that the more humane method of slaughter is JDAM from 35kft? You’re value system is twisted.
“most the terrorists so far have been muslims, what does that tell you?.”
It tells me that you’re probably a racist and you don’t know what a terrorist is. Most of those whom you like to refer to as terrorists are actually insurgents or just plain criminals. Stop watching so much Fox news. They are fucking up your perception of reality.
“Yes the reasons to invade Iraq were dubious but hey lets move on and fix the problem.”
The case Bush presented was entirely fabricated. You know how I know? Simple detective work. Nobody is one hundred percent certain that someone possesses something without having any clue of where it is. You’re a sucker. Charles knows it, but he won’t admit it because he is here trying to protect the Republican party.
You don’t “move on” from mass murder. You incarcerate those responsible, which in this case is the Bush administration.
“Saying that how can you fix a problem with a people who still blame the jews for killing Christ, shit get over it!! the rest of the world has, move on.”
What the hell are you rambling on about? The US didn’t invade Iraq because the Muslims hate Jesus, so what does anything you are saying have to do with anything else? You seem a little addle-brained.
“Your joking right please tell me your joking!! ha ha i am suprised you have internet in the nut house you live in.”
You just act dismissive because the truth is that you have nothing to refute his premise, right? What you’re doing is called an “ad hominem” attack. When someone uses ad hominem attacks in a discussion such as this, they are actually broadcasting the fact that they are out of ammunitition.
Michael — “I have to say I’m amuses by people like VET”
He’s been indoctrinated. People in Vet’s state of mind are actually similar to cult-members. They have a twisted sense of reality. Vet is susceptible to this due to his weak character and lack of education.
How a convicted fraudster was paid millions to confirm false intelligence
“You hum it and we will sing it.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Chalabi
Ahmed Abdel Hadi Chalabi, Ph.D.1 (Arabic: احمد الجلبي) (born October 30, 1944) is a deputy prime minister in Iraq, and currently interim oil minister [1]. Once dubbed the “George Washington of Iraq” by American Neoconservatives
In 1977 he founded the Petra Bank in Jordan. After the bank’s failure, Chalabi was convicted and sentenced in absentia for bank fraud.
In the lead-up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, under his guidance the INC provided a major portion of the information on which U.S. Intelligence based its condemnation of Saddam Hussein, including reports of weapons of mass destruction and alleged ties to al-Qaeda.
Throughout the period, Chalabi’s Iraqi National Congress was paid $335,000 per month by the Pentagon for the intelligence provided. In addition, the U.S. State Department paid over $33 million, according to a U.S. General Accounting office report in 2004.
Warnings on WMD ‘Fabricator’ Were Ignored, Ex-CIA Aide Says
By Joby Warrick
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/24/AR2006062401081_pf.html
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 25, 2006; A01
In late January 2003, as Secretary of State Colin Powell prepared to argue the Bush administration’s case against Iraq at the United Nations, veteran CIA officer Tyler Drumheller sat down with a classified draft of Powell’s speech to look for errors. He found a whopper: a claim about mobile biological labs built by Iraq for germ warfare.
Drumheller instantly recognized the source, an Iraqi defector suspected of being mentally unstable and a liar. The CIA officer took his pen, he recounted in an interview, and crossed out the whole paragraph.
A few days later, the lines were back in the speech. Powell stood before the U.N. Security Council on Feb. 5 and said: “We have first-hand descriptions of biological weapons factories on wheels and on rails.“
The sentence took Drumheller completely by surprise.
“We thought we had taken care of the problem,” said the man who was the CIA’s European operations chief before retiring last year, “but I turn on the television and there it was, again.“
While the administration has repeatedly acknowledged intelligence failures over Iraqi weapons claims that led to war, new accounts by former insiders such as Drumheller shed light on one of the most spectacular failures of all: How U.S. intelligence agencies were eagerly drawn in by reports about a troubled defector’s claims of secret germ factories in the Iraqi desert. The mobile labs were never found.
Drumheller, who is writing a book about his experiences, described in extensive interviews repeated attempts to alert top CIA officials to problems with the defector, code-named Curveball, in the days before the Powell speech. Other warnings came prior to President Bush’s State of the Union address on Jan. 28, 2003. In the same speech that contained the now famous “16 words” on Iraqi attempts to acquire uranium, Bush spoke in far greater detail about mobile labs “designed to produce germ warfare agents.“The warnings triggered debates within the CIA but ultimately made no visible impact at the top, current and former intelligence officials said. In briefing Powell before his U.N. speech, George Tenet, then the CIA director, personally vouched for the accuracy of the mobile-lab claim, according to participants in the briefing. Tenet now says he did not learn of the problems with Curveball until much later and that he received no warnings from Drumheller or anyone else.
“No one mentioned Drumheller, or Curveball,” Lawrence B. Wilkerson, Powell’s chief of staff at the time, said in an interview. “I didn’t know the name Curveball until months afterward.”
Curveball’s role in shaping U.S. declarations about Iraqi bioweapons capabilities was first described in a series of reports in the Los Angeles Times, and later in a March 2005 report by a presidential commission on U.S. intelligence failures regarding allegations that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. But Drumheller’s first-hand accounts add new detail about the CIA’s embrace of a source whose credibility was already unraveling.
More than a year after Powell’s speech, after an investigation that extended to three continents, the CIA acknowledged that Curveball was a con artist who drove a taxi in Iraq and spun his engineering knowledge into a fantastic but plausible tale about secret bioweapons factories on wheels.
But in the fall of 2002, Curveball was living the life of an important spy. A Baghdad native whose real name has never been released, he was residing in a safe house in Germany, where he had requested asylum three years earlier. In return for immigration permits for himself and his family, the Iraqi supplied Germany’s foreign intelligence service with what appeared to be a rare insider’s account of one of President Saddam Hussein’s long-rumored WMD programs.
Curveball described himself as a chemical engineer who had worked inside an unusual kind of laboratory, one that was built on a trailer bed and produced weapons for germ warfare. He furnished detailed, technically complex descriptions of mobile labs and even described an industrial accident that he said killed a dozen people.
The German intelligence agency BND faithfully passed Curveball’s stories to the Americans. Over time, the informant generated more than 100 intelligence reports on secret Iraqi weapons programs — the only such reports from an informant claiming to have visited and worked in mobile labs. Other informants, also later discredited, had claimed indirect knowledge of mobile labs.
In late 2002, the Bush administration began scouring intelligence files for reports of Iraqi weapons threats. Drumheller was asked to press a counterpart from a European intelligence agency for direct access to Curveball. Other officials confirmed that it was the German intelligence service.
The German official declined but then offered a startlingly candid assessment, Drumheller recalled. “He said, ‘I think the guy is a fabricator,’ ” Drumheller said, recounting the conversation with the official, whom he declined to name. “He said: ‘We also think he has psychological problems. We could never validate his reports.’ ”
When Drumheller relayed the warning to his superiors in October 2002, it sparked what he described as “a series of the most contentious meetings I’ve ever seen” in three decades of government work.
Although no American had ever interviewed Curveball, analysts with the CIA’s Center for Weapons Intelligence, Nonproliferation and Arms Control believed the informant’s technical descriptions were too detailed to be fabrications.
“People were cursing. These guys were absolutely, violently committed to it,” Drumheller said. “They would say to us, ‘You’re not scientists, you don’t understand.’ ”
In January 2003, Drumheller received a new request from CIA headquarters to contact the German intelligence service about Curveball. This time, Drumheller recalled, the U.S. spy agency had three questions:
Could a U.S. official refer to Curveball’s mobile lab accounts in an upcoming political speech?
Could the Germans guarantee that Curveball would stand by his account?
Could German intelligence verify Curveball’s claims?
The reply from Berlin, as Drumheller recalls it, was less than encouraging: There are no guarantees.
“They said, ‘We have never been able to verify his claims,’ ” Drumheller recalled. “And that was all sent up to Tenet’s office.”
When Drumheller listened to Bush’s speech several days later, he was astonished to hear the mobile labs described in detail.
“Boom, there it was,” he said.
A few days later, Drumheller was handed a draft of another key speech on Iraq: Powell’s remarks to the U.N. Security Council accusing Hussein of reconstituting his WMD programs. This time, the speech included an obvious reference to Curveball — an unnamed “chemical engineer” who worked in one of the labs — as well as detailed drawings of mobile labs inspired by Curveball’s descriptions.
Drumheller said he called the office of John E. McLaughlin, then the CIA deputy director, and was told to come there immediately. Drumheller said he sat across from McLaughlin and an aide in a small conference room and spelled out his concerns.
McLaughlin responded with alarm and said Curveball was “the only tangible source” for the mobile lab story, Drumheller recalled, adding that the deputy director promised to quickly investigate.
Portions of Drumheller’s account of his meetings with McLaughlin and Tenet appear in the final report of the Silberman-Robb commission, which was appointed by Bush to investigate prewar U.S. intelligence failures on Iraq’s weapons programs. The report cites e-mails and interviews with other CIA officials who were aware of the meetings.
In responding to questions about Drumheller, McLaughlin provided The Post with a copy of the statement he gave in response to the commission’s report. The statement said he had no memories of the meeting with Drumheller and had no written documentation that the meeting took place.
“If someone had made these doubts clear to me, I would not have permitted the reporting to be used in Secretary Powell’s speech,” McLaughlin said in the statement.
In their briefings to Powell on Feb. 4, one day before the secretary’s U.N. speech, Tenet and McLaughlin expressed nothing but confidence in the mobile-lab story, according to Wilkerson, Powell’s chief of staff, who was present during the briefings.
“Powell and I were both suspicious because there were no pictures of the mobile labs,” Wilkerson said. The drawings were constructed from Curveball’s accounts.
But the CIA officials were persuasive. Wilkerson said the two men described the evidence on the mobile labs as exceptionally strong, based on multiple sources whose stories were independently corroborated.
“They said: ‘This is it, Mr. Secretary. You can’t doubt this one,’ ” Wilkerson said.
On the eve of the U.N. speech, Drumheller received a late-night phone call from Tenet, who said he was checking final details of the speech. Drumheller said he brought up the mobile labs.
“I said: ‘Hey, boss, you’re not going to use that stuff in the speech … ? There are real problems with that,’ ” Drumheller said, recalling the conversation.Drumheller recalled that Tenet seemed distracted and tired and told him not to worry.
The following day, Tenet was seated directly behind Powell at the U.N. Security Council as the secretary of state presented a detailed lecture and slide show about an Iraqi mobile biological weapons program.
Tenet, responding to questions about Drumheller’s accounts, provided to The Post a statement he had given in response to the Silberman-Robb Commission report in which he said he didn’t learn of the problems with Curveball until much later. He did not recall talking to Drumheller about Curveball, and said it was “simply wrong” for anyone to imply that he knew about the problems with Curveball’s credibility.
“Nobody came forward to say there is a serious problem with Curveball or that we have been told by the foreign representative of the service handling him that there are worries that he is a ‘fabricator,’ ” Tenet said in his statement.
In late summer 2003, seven months after the U.N. speech, Tenet called Powell to say that the Curveball story had fallen apart, Wilkerson said. The call amounted to an admission that all of the CIA’s claims Powell used in his speech about Iraqi weapons were wrong.
“They had hung on for a long time, but finally Tenet called Powell to say, ‘We don’t have that one, either,’ ” Wilkerson recalled. “The mobile labs were the last thing to go.”
Charles — “Except that the people the terrorists execute are truck drivers, election workers, students, doctors, etc.”
As if those JDAMS and M-4 rounds have been all that discriminating. Sheesh. I find it amusing when you try to tug at people’s heart strings when, in reality, you don’t give a rats ass for those people.
“They are innocent.”
So were the couple of hundred thousand Iraqis the US forces have smoked so far.
“Why do you keep chasing yopur tail on this?”
Charles, you can yap yap yap all you want. A crime was committed according to US and international law. There is an orgy of evidence to support that statement as fact.
“What the President said about Iraq is supported by the consensus of the intelligence community.”
Dude, you’re fucking lying, ya rat bastard. The intelligence community’s opinion was that there was no proof to suggest that Saddam was in violation. You can’t just be invading on a whim. The fact that you don’t recognize that fact makes me think you are a sociopath sometimes.
“The prewar intelligence failure was investigated”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6423.htm
“The bottom line is that Saddam did not comply with the initial cease fire agreement”
No, the bottom line is that Bush waged an illegal war of aggression which has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis in violation of US and international law.
Jon,
The US has not deliberately bombed civilians. Civilians have died, but its usually because they were in the close proximity to the intended targets, or the weapon malfunctioned/human targeting error. How can you possible conflate that with sawing people’s heads off?
That’s just nuts. We have not ‘smoked’ 250,000 Iraqis. When you say stuff like that it puts you ‘over the line.’
Fine Jon — take us to court. That’s great. Ra Ra. Now how about the real issue of how to stabilize Iraq, promote democracy, and defeat the terrorists? Its interesting to note that the recent overtures by sunni insurgents included a 2 year timeline for US withdrawal. I guess they don’t want us to leave too quickly. The US is actually a stabilizing factor and the sunnis want us so they don’t get steamrolled by the shia.
Dude, I’m not sure what you have been smoking but the various commissions made it quite clear that the while the IC was wrong, Bush was not lying when he used the IC as the basis for his testimony. The President relies upon the IC to inform his decisions. The IC told him that Iraq was in violation, reconstituting its programs, etc. Don’t bother responding with ‘But Saddam didn’t have any weapons dude” because I have already admitted that the IC was wrong on many counts. But that doesn’t mean the President lied.
OK Jon. Take us to court. Follow the law. It will be quite a show! But again, that can just as easily be taken up after Iraq has stabilized. Legal or illegal, its a done deal and you cannot just turn the clock back.
Charles — “The US has not deliberately bombed civilians.”
Bush fabricated a story to incite an illegal war of aggression. Bush knows that bombs fall on civilians in war. Bush has intentionally and illegal killed civilians in Iraq. This type of logic is the simple pattern of reasoning that one uses in law enforcement to determine a subject’s guilt.
“How can you possible conflate that with sawing people’s heads off?”
Your cause/effect analysis is too narrow. You are ignoring the relationship of all current activity to the initial action. I can trace the path of responsibility for all the death in Iraq back to George Bush’s irrational and illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq. Tracing the causailty of any violence currently in Iraq will lead you ultimately back to Bush and his staff.
In medical terms, you are only trying to treat the symptoms and not the disease.
“That’s just nuts. We have not ’smoked’ 250,000 Iraqis. When you say stuff like that it puts you ‘over the line.’”
Interesting that you say “250,000″. I said a couple of hundred thousand. That means that you already knew the best guess at an Iraqi body count. I’m glad that you are at least keeping informed of the damage you are doing.
“Fine Jon — take us to court.”
If I’d had any say in the matter, Bush would have been charged by now, but I think people are waiting for the 2006 elections.
“Now how about the real issue of how to stabilize Iraq, promote democracy”
That is not our responsability. The Iraqis can settle Iraq for themselves. If they want international help, they can appeal to the UN for unbiased international, non-US, assistance.
“and defeat the terrorists?”
How do you plan on defeating terrorists through the same action that is working to instigate that same terrorism? Your logic does not wash.
“Its interesting to note that the recent overtures by sunni insurgents included a 2 year timeline for US withdrawal. I guess they don’t want us to leave too quickly.”
First, it’d be hard to get meaningful overtures from insurgents. There is no power structure between the disparate groups. They are guerillas. Regardless, the longer the US stays in Iraq, the more violence which will be encouraged and the longer it is going to take for Iraq to pick up the slack. Us being there is just another excuse for people to keep smoking each other.
“The US is actually a stabilizing factor and the sunnis want us so they don’t get steamrolled by the shia.”
It doesn’t matter. Eventually, Iraq will homogenize and modernize. The US presence is holding up progress. Iraqis need to develop their own national identity without US intervention.
“But that doesn’t mean the President lied.”
Bush and members of his staff not only lied, but created an entire multimedia presentation which was entirely fabricated with the intention of deceiving the US citizenry. Now you are here trying to follow in their footsteps.
“Take us to court.”
I’m trying to start an insurrection instead.
“that can just as easily be taken up after Iraq has stabilized”
You mean after we’ve secured our oil interests.
“its a done deal and you cannot just turn the clock back”
Are you telling me that there is not going to be anyone left who can withdraw the troops from Iraq if we incarcerate the Bush administration? I have a feeling we can easily do both at the same time.
Jon,
Stop already with the West Point Grads website link. Its only how you and they interpret the Constitution. Its not the voice of God or even our forefathers.
Prove how this war is “illegal”. Illegal compared to what? What law has been legally abridged? Until you can prove these things, your argument still remains only an opinion. And West Point’s argument remains only it’s opinion.
Why not take the case of this war to the Supreme Court?
The man in Iraq just won his case against Rumsfeld so it may serve you and the others you agree with some good.
Let’s get politics out of the way and let justice be served.
That way we can get on with our lives and worry about our own issues.
So often I hear Americans claim that this invasion was not illegal, “it was approved by the US Congress” they whine. But the fact remains is that the US Congress doesn’t have the right to over rule International Law, It’s actually written in Article V1, clause 2 of the US Constitution.
Often then Yanquis will claim that Resolution 1441 authorised it, it didn’t of course, indeed if you read comments made by members of the Security Council at the time it was approved, it was made clear that under no circumstances was it pre-approval for military action, besides it didn’t include the correct wording authorising it.
Then of course Yanquis will claim that the Resolution authorising military force against Iraq to remove them from Kuwait is authorisation, once again it clearly specified that it covered only those circumstances at the time regardless of whether Saddam complied with the destruction of WMD, which in fact he did anyway.
The yanqui arguments of course can be completely dismissed in any case in view of their unsuccessful attempt to actually get a UN Resolution authoring force backed up by , what we all know now, a pack of lies presented by Powell.
Article VI, Clause 2 of the US Constitution.
Summary of Article VI.
:“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land
The UN Charter is of course one of those Treaties referred to in the US Constitution.
In the UN Charter it states;
Article 2 of the United Nations Charter.
AND
Articles 39 — 50 of the United Nations Charter.
Summary of Articles 39–50. Articles 39 — 50 of the United Nations Charter clearly stipulate that no member state is authorised to use military force against another country without the UN Security Council first determining that certain criteria have been met. (1) There must be a material breach of its resolution; and (2) All nonmilitary and peaceful options to enforce the resolution must be fully exhausted. Once it has been decided that the necessary conditions for military action have been met, only the UN Security Council can authorise the use of military force. [UN Charter]
AND
Kellog-Briand Pact of 1928.
I would so love to take some of you to Iraq to see what really is going on.
To see the good the Multinational Forces are doing and to show you that they are not murdering people for the fun of it.
If you reallybelieve they are you are so dumb and ignorant it begs belief.
Its fine for peole who have never been and seen to give comment, but come on over and see, Talk to the people on the ground about what really is going on not the insurgent spokesperson or a political party or the local mulla, just the regular Iraqi, you might be suprised.
I asked my close friend Ahmed how do you feel about the Multinational Forces being here, he said and i quote” we like the British and the others just not the US, i asked why not the US the only answer was they are friends of Israel” how fucked up is that?
What law was broken when the Coalition invaded Iraq?
What was it? i hear people say it was illegal, so what law was broken?
I have to say without quoting from a paper but from talking to iraqi’s they are glad the coalition came, they want the insurgents to stop and they want the Forces to leave when Iraq is secure, and that is upto the insurgents and the Iraqi Goverment.
Maybe i look at it in black and white but hey stop fighting = coalition leave = Iraq stable and free, wow it seems so simple.
What law was broken when the Coalition invaded Iraq?What was it? i hear people say it was illegal, so what law was broken?
read the previous post.
I’m in daily contact with Iraqis in Iraq and the real situation is far different to what you claim. One particular person, a Christian by the way, previously a civil engineer during Saddam’s time is no longer able to find work. Why? Because he’s a Christian. His Mother who has a serious heart problem was turned out of a Baghdad hospital because she and her son could no longer pay for it, that would never have happened in Saddam’s time. Iraq, particularly before the vindictive sanctions took hold had one of the best and free heath services in the Middle East.
Although the person in question was reasonably well off before the illegal invasion, he had to pay a $20,000 ransom to US forces to get his niece released. Now there’s no clean drinking water, electricity is limited to a few hours a day.
So to be honest I’m not the slightest bit interested in your lies concerning the current situation in Iraq, they merely go to prove that either you’ve never been there or you are a natural born liar.
I have lived in Basra and Baghdad, Baghdad right now and i have electricity and water, yes its intermittent now and again but hey stop blowing up the power stations and water sources, its not the US doing the damage.
I suppose your friend paid a man called Joe right?
Your friend would have a job if the reconstruction programme could get moving but its too dangerous, because of the insurgents, so hey have a chat to them and explain to them its not working, its just delaying the futre.
Its a shame your friend had a problem at the hospital but its not the fault of the coalition, its the fault of the Hospital and the coruption.
Shit stop fighting th coalition the UN will return after they murdered the head of mission…mmmmm did we forget that the UN came to help and you repaid them by killing the head of mission.
You need to visit and i would love to take you , how long do you think it would be till the people you defend put you in a boiler suit and cut your head off with a blunt spoon
have lived in Basra and Baghdad, Baghdad right now and i have electricity and water, yes its intermittent now and again but hey stop blowing up the power stations and water sources, its not the US doing the damage.
Actually even that’s a totally incorrect statement, most of the Iraqi infrastructure was destroyed by the US before the invasion even started.
I suppose your friend paid a man called Joe right?
You think it’s matter to joke about?
Your friend would have a job if the reconstruction programme could get moving but its too dangerous, because of the insurgents, so hey have a chat to them and explain to them its not working, its just delaying the future.
Actually he could probably get a job if it wasn’t for the fact that money designated for re-building Iraq hadn’t in the main been embezzled by the US gov/army.
Its a shame your friend had a problem at the hospital but its not the fault of the coalition, its the fault of the Hospital and the coruption.
Somebody called “Joe” perhaps? :) It’s a problem caused by the illegal invasion, it’s not a situation which would have occurred previously.
Shit stop fighting th coalition the UN will return after they murdered the head of mission…mmmmm did we forget that the UN came to help and you repaid them by killing the head of mission.
Who’s “we” you stupid piece of yanqui shite? There’s only one way the USA’s hands will be prized off the oil and that’s by a continuing resistance. A number of Arab States in early 2004 offered to take over the “peace destroying” activities of the USA, but it was turned down because the USA wanted to stay in charge of the illegal occupation.
You need to visit and i would love to take you , how long do you think it would be till the people you defend put you in a boiler suit and cut your head off with a blunt spoon.
Funny then that you haven’t lost your head yet, we can only hope. I think if you had really been in Iraq you wouldn’t be living with so many fantasies about the current situation.
Here’s an example of the US forces involvement in extortion.
http://www.13wham.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=CDE6BC3F-A8AF-48AD-A7D6-ACE24922D3C3
U.S. military officials say California Army National Guard troops charged Iraqi merchants illegal rent, the Los Angeles Times reports.
The announcement Friday is the latest in an ongoing investigation into the conduct of the Guard’s 1st Battalion of the 184th Infantry Regiment, based in Modesto, Calif.
The battalion’s commander, Lt. Col. Patrick Frey, has already been suspended and one of the battalion’s companies has been taken off patrol duty.
An unnamed officer also has had disciplinary action taken against him. Lt. Col. Cliff Kent, a spokesman for the 3rd Infantry Division in Iraq, said that two vendors inside Baghdad’s Green Zone paid the rent to members of Bravo Company.
Army officials claim only $4,000 was paid, but battalion troops say it was more than $30,000.
The money allegedly went into a soldier’s fund, used to pay bills back home and for items such as t-shirts and commemorative coins in Iraq.
“So when the news is not balanced and it’s always bad, that clearly leads to negative perceptions back home”
For “not balanced” read “not censored”
US could lose in Iraq due to negative media
coverage: commander Fri Jun 30, 12:33 PM ET
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060630/pl_afp/usiraqmilitary&printer=1;_ylt=Aq5JygsnJurbTnCK8W0HgpmtOrgF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE–
A US combat commander suggested the United States could lose the war in Iraq if public support for it at home is sapped by negative media coverage.
“My personal opinion is that the only way we will lose this war is if we pull out prematurely,” said Colonel Jeffrey Snow, a brigade commander in Baghdad.
“I would hope we get the time and support we need to finish this mission,” he said in a video conference from Iraq.
Snow, whose own troops have come under stepped-up insurgent attacks this month, criticized media coverage as too focused on insurgent roadside bombings, kidnappings and assassinations.
“Our soldiers may be in the crosshairs every day, but it is the American voter who is a real target, and it is the media that carries the message back each day across the airwaves,” he said.
“So when the news is not balanced and it’s always bad, that clearly leads to negative perceptions back home,” he said.
Snow leads the 1st Brigade of the 10th Mountain Division, which is winding up a year-long tour in Iraq. He said it had made progress in training Iraqi troops to replace it.
He acknowledged insurgent attacks have gone up in his western Baghdad area of operations since the start of a city-wide security crackdown ordered by the new Iraqi government earlier this month.
Increased checkpoints and foot patrols in Baghdad had drawn an increase in insurgent attacks, he said.
“The way I would answer that is that attacks here recently are up in our area. However, the overall effectiveness are down,” he said.
“So you may perceive that as double-speak. I don’t have the precise numbers in front of me,” he added.
That is not true,
Electricity is 6 hours a day only
Electricity Production in Iraq Remains Below Pre-War Levels
As i said i have electricity and Water, yes intermittent but i have it and so do others so less of the its the US fault we have none.
The reason why you do not have a good electricity system is the people who came to repair them keep getting killed by insurgents so they refuse to come, and as i remember when the war started the iraqi’s were stripping the power lines for the copper wire, hence why so many power lines are down and the electricty is intermitent.
Now tell me i have not been or am not in Iraq!!
Seen it with my own eyes.
I also have a backup generator like others.
Amd with your news clippings about one person i the US forces doing the charging people, i think its wrong too but i do not label every other member of the US military with the same brush, one does not make all evil.
The same goes for Iraqi’s, not every iraqi is a insurgent.
“What law was broken when the Coalition invaded Iraq?What was it? i hear people say it was illegal, so what law was broken?”
Michael — in a way this is a childish punch but in a way it’s not. I’m going to bet that you are a “Christian” and since international law is such a vauge and ambigious thing, let’s take it back to the real big basics.
#6 on the top ten tonight is “Thou shalt not murder”
Um… That’s in the file that you would like published on the walls of our ‘non-religious by founding principles but really should understand basic values’ buildings isn’t it? And … if you don’t know the file by name … it’s .… the … 10 .… comandments — you know — like from God.
Come on Michael, step to the stand here. Go ahead and claim that you are opposed to the public usage of the ten commandments. ooops! That’s a liberal ploy!!!! That’s BS!!! I mean.… OF COURSE we should have the ten commandments on the doorstep of EVERY government building right? It doesn’t matter if people actually READ them — it’s just that they SHOULD be there because it shows that we love god!!!
Wake up dude — Jesus was a liberal. Again — I’m going to bet that you claim Jesus in whatever way you do it. Great. Live it. Killing follows killing. Jesus was all about tha killin’ right?
I have to ask this — have you ever been in a fight and just stopped? Have ever just not hit back? It’s this crazy thing that really works. It’s not always immediate but in a straight up fist fight it winds up with less wounds on both parties and it works pretty quick. No bully likes to hit an enemy who just lies down and doesn’t more. I know this from hard true personal experience. So you know — I am personally a scary looking 250lbs mofo who lives in the gym. It’s pretty funny and silly that by looking like a badass, no one EVER wants to fight you for the most part — but there’s a HUGE parallel and this comes from the wisdom of my own experience. I look a little but like Stone Cold (Steve Austin) — not quite as big but pretty close. So picture this.…. would you fight that guy you see in your mind???? And I bet the answer is “No Way”.
It gets even worse with going up against the U.S.A — in the example of me (bald, 250lb, muscled liberal who has never fought worth a shit in his life) a pipsqueak might actually stand a chance — for real– I am so lame at boxing/fighting/whatvever — I could seriously be trounced by a man half my size. In the case of the USA, any 2 bit criminal despot thug knows they will get trampled, trounced, destroyed by the amazing fighting force the US has (AND — throw this out to screw your anti-dem rhetoric up — my personal daily workout equates to the billions spent on making the US look good — I am PRO, PRO, PRO, PRO, PRO strong military power. Let me say that again — because you didn’t read it — I am PRO, PRO, PRO, PRO, PRO strong military power. Let me say that again — because you didn’t read it — I am PRO, PRO, PRO, PRO, PRO strong military power. Let me say that again — because you didn’t read it — I am PRO, PRO, PRO, PRO, PRO strong military power. Let me say that again — because you didn’t read it.
Because that is our best real defense.
I have friends though who I have yet to reform who have a) Been in jail for fights and have felonies and misdemeanors on their records b) have serious scars and injuries from the same c) have had loved ones hurt as a result d) have had property damaged and/or taken away as a result. Me? None of the above since I came to the realization that if you stop, it stops.
Yep, we lost 3000 people on 9/11 — know any of them? I do. My best friend from college wen’t down. My very best friend. Would he have been happy to hear that a single iraqi child died to make sure someone got it back for him? no fucking way. He wasn’t a peacenik like me but he sure as hell wouldn’t have thought his life should have been tallied up worth 1 US GI and 100 iraqi’s (who are HUMANS jut like you). No F’in way.
Now over 100,000 people are dead suppposedly because of this. Did that AVENGE them? Where is the law about this in your ‘Christian’ god books? Um — yeah — I don’t think it is… because Jesus would have turned the other cheek and he would have won.
So here’s my concept — “Look like a badass but when called out roll over” — look dude, America won’t be taken over by Muslims. Nothing can convert you from you totally jacked up, confused “christianity” so what exactly are you afraid of???
Well, I did get way off track. I’m interested in hearng a logical rebuttal — not some stupid, inane Fox News Smackdown to which I will light up all of my rhetoric and ruin you.
The law which was broken was in YOUR god book. Tell me where you skipped it and I am a Jesus worshipping Aetheist because there is NO religion that walks his beautiful walk.
Yes of course I’m a Christian, but International Law is quite clear as I’ve already detailed above. The invasion of Iraq was contrary to the Geneva Convention and International Law, there’s not the slightest bit of doubt about that. Sure the Yanquis don’t want to know just as the Nazis invading Czechoslovia didn’t want to know, but the time will come when you have no doubt.
Wake up dude — Jesus was a liberal. Again — I’m going to bet that you claim Jesus in whatever way you do it. Great. Live it. Killing follows killing. Jesus was all about tha killin’ right?
I may be a Christian by I’m not a Christian fundamentalist or extremist of the kind you see in the USA. They are the people that give religion a bad name.
Yep, we lost 3000 people on 9/11 — know any of them? I do. My best friend from college wen’t down. My very best friend. Would he have been happy to hear that a single iraqi child died to make sure someone got it back for him? no fucking way.
How Yanquis like to remind everyone about 9/11 but either want to forget Albright’s 500,000 children being “worth it” or simply are in ignorance. The world didn’t start revolving on 9/11 and it could be argued that it was totally deserved.
Vet writes “Amd with your news clippings about one person i the US forces doing the charging people, i think its wrong too but i do not label every other member of the US military with the same brush, one does not make all evil.
What went on at Abu Graib was known about at least a year before the public found out. Even then it was down to perverts wanting to video the action. Without that the USA would still be claiming it hadn’t happened. We are not looking at isolated incidents,we are looking at the type of behaviour which is endemic throughout the US Army.
No it is not you are crazy and talking crap, you know nothing, you moan for no reason, yes bad thinkgs have happend but i do no thear you condeming the insurgents or the saddam regime, not once have you all you do is bitch the USA
Michael –I am sorry because I — think — I didn’t read enough of your post and knee jerked to one comment. I think it sounds like maybe we are on the same team … and if so — maybe I can roll over like a big thug on your team and apologize????