As these idiots legitimizing the killings and murders of innocent people:
It is very, very difficult for us to justify why we are not taking revenge….With every car bomb and every attack on a Shi’ite mosque our people are calling us and accusing us of being cowards,
Iraq Shi’ites see reasons for death squad killings
That is self-explanatory; the one who came to power on the back of American tanks and running behind the American agenda for sure is a coward.
Sunni leaders are calling for UN peace keeping mission.
Sunni politicians on Monday called on the U.N. Security Council to send peacekeepers to Iraq saying U.S.-led “occupation forces” cannot protect Iraqis.
Sunni politicians call for sending U.N. peacekeepers to Iraq
Which is true, and I want to add one more option to this plan:
I guess LB never got the memo on rampant corruption and sexual abuse by UN peacekeepers.
I would totally support the move though. The Iraqi government and the US has been asking the UN for several years now to increase its participation in securing and rebuilding Iraq.
Bush asked for help back in 2003–4, but I haven’t seen anything lately. Have you? Also, didn’t he insist that the US command all forces, including the UN peacekeepers? Since we started this mess without UN support, why should they put their people under our command? It’s very sad that Iraqis have lost so much faith in us that they are calling for help.
LB, I can’t see how it would help Iraq to isolate or remove all US troops right now. With the running gun battles in the streets of Baghdad over the weekend, it’s clear that the country’s on the verge of open civil war. I’m no expert, but it seems to me that removing the US would cause all hell to break loose. I don’t understand your logic when you say that:
Wasn’t the fighting we just saw between Sunnis and Shia? Isn’t the presence of troops the only thing slowing them down at this point?
Yes Jarn you are right, but the proposal was turned down by the USA since they wanted to keep overall control. Not that they have overall control of course :)
But you know many nations throughout the world realise the obvious, that being Iraq was invaded not because of WMD, links with terrorism etc but because of the oil.
There’s a general feeling I think that assisting the US in Iraq would simply move the cost of the occupation to other nations simply to protect the USA’s oil interests.
http://www.juancole.com/2004_07_01_juancole_archive.html
Yemen had offered earlier this month to help in a UN mission in Iraq, provided all coalition forces withdraw …
Commenting on the Muslim force proposal, Arab League envoy to Britain Ali Hamid said in London that the idea could gain international support as long as it was accompanied by a clear US commitment to withdraw from Iraq and was mandated by the United Nations Security Council.
Many Arab countries have indicated they would be willing to get more involved in Iraq if they can do so under the UN, rather than a perceived US, umbrella. ’
Michael, while it’s clear that the US wanted to keep the oil moving for selfish reasons, I can’t believe that this is about outright theft. First, there’s no way that they can get away with it. Second, as inept as they are, even Bush is not stupid enough to plan a takeover of Iraqi oil at the cost of 2500 soldiers and $300 billion.
First, there’s no way that they can get away with it.
For the moment they have, not in the way they hoped for of course because the resistance is much stronger than they imagined.
Second, as inept as they are, even Bush is not stupid enough to plan a takeover of Iraqi oil at the cost of 2500 soldiers and $300 billion.
I don’t think the oil business considers 2,500 deaths too high a price to pay or 250,000 Iraqis if it comes to that. If this illegal invasion had paid off in the way they hoped with increased production and a fall in oil prices, it would certainly have been worth while. That is still Bush’s hope of course.
“In the past, dependence on oil has cost our economy dearly. Oil price shocks and price manipulation by the OPEC cartel from 1979 to 1991 cost the U.S. economy about $4 trillion, almost as much as we spent on national defense over the same time period and more than the interest payments on the national debt. Each major price shock of the past three decades was followed by an economic recession in the United States. With growing U.S. imports and increasing world dependence on OPEC oil, future price shocks are possible and would be costly to the U.S. economy.“
(Source: U.S. Department of Energy, Spring 2002.)
Jarn,
Using common sense in an argument with perroquet is quite useless. He craves complex, unlikely, unsupportable, illogical conspiratorial explanations for things. And not just any conspiracy mind you. It must involve the US as nazis stealing and oppressing people in their quest to conquer the world.
There is a clinical diagnosis for this type of mental behavior.
illogical conspiratorial explanations for things.
Would that be like WMD, links with terrorism, Iraq responsible for 9/11, mass graves, human shredders, throwing babies out of incubators, yellow cake from Niger, Iraq able to attack the west in 45 minutes.
I’m the one that deals in realities, you deal in lies, fantasies and fabrications.
I’m not sure how to respond to these US-as-evil-empire posts. You don’t need to list all the bad things we’ve done (I can do that myself, for the US or any other country). Michael, Bush and co. have blundered into a quagmire through sheer incompetence, arrogance and ignorance, but he’s not Darth Vader. Even the late Ken Lay would “consider 2,500 deaths too high a price to pay or 250,000 Iraqis if it comes to that” –in the name of profits. Have you ever spent any time in the US?
Yes Jarn, over 6 times, one being a period of 2 years. But I don’t think the invasion of Iraq was without a motive, it’s quite simple it was all about oil. Don’t really know much about Lay but certainly Albright thought 500,000 Iraqi children were “worth it”, perhaps you believe Bush and his criminal gang to have better morals than Albright?
Bush’s motive was in line with the PNAC world vision. My guess is that he was clueless after 9/11 and into that leadership vacuum Cheney, Wolfowitz and the rest stepped in with a ready-made agenda.
Look, I’m not defending these people’s actions — but I think this is more of a case of the road to hell paved in good intentions than evil cunning.
But you agree that the invasion of Iraq was planned before 9/11?
As far as the “good intentions” go you must be a very trusting person, so basically you believe the US was willing to spend £180 billion helping the Iraqis despite the fact they killed 1.3 million of them by enforcing the sanctions?
“Planned invasion” — as in faking 9/11 and all that? No. But the PNAC argued for “intervention” in the ME to spread democracy and protect American interests in the same spirit as Manifest Destiny, and it’s interesting to note how many of Bush’s inner circle were past members. That’s my contribution to conspiracy theories for the week ;).
Allbright made a very stupid remark that was not in line with her other accomplishments, so I have to wonder if the quote from TAI’s blog really represented what she believed. I should also point out that the Food For Oil program was a UN operation.
Look, I don’t think our opinions differ that much.. oil was part of the picture, but it doesn’t make sense to me that it was the main motivation. Bush and company really thought they were done with his fly-boy act in “Mission Accomplished”, which just shows you how woefully uninformed he was. I think he really did believe he was going to be the hero that brought peace to the ME, and in typical Bush fashion, stubbornly ran with that including twisting the facts as needed to support his delusions.
Wasn’t it the “resistance” the blew up the UN mission to Iraq, way back when? Now they want them back, for what and easy target?
I think what the Iraqis seem to need are psychiatrist, maybe they should ask for the WHO, and not the blue hats
Madtom, there are so many groups running around Iraq that you can’t really pin the UN bombing on the Iraqi government. IMHO, the best thing Bush could do for Iraq is to allow the UN to take over, which of course would be to admit he was wrong (which he will never do). We clearly do not have the resources to control Iraq by ourselves, and most Iraqi’s want us out. The only thing keeping the Iraqi government from asking us to leave is that it would be their demise, although I think they’re getting close to it when factions start asking for UN help. What do you think would happen if there was an official request for us to leave?
FACTBOX-Developments in Iraq on July 9
July 9 (Reuters) — The following are security and other developments in Iraq on Sunday as of 1545.
Asterisk denotes a new or updated item.
*BAGHDAD — Two car bombs that exploded near a Shi’ite mosque in northeastern Baghdad killed at least 17 people and wounded 45 on Sunday, police said.
BAGHDAD — Shi’ite militia gunmen went on a rampage in a Sunni district of Baghdad on Sunday, killing at least 42 people in the bloodiest street killings yet of Iraq’s worsening sectarian violence, interior ministry sources.
MOSUL — Gunmen shot dead two car mechanics inside their shop in northeastern Mosul, a hospital source said.
KIRKUK — Three Iraqi soldiers were killed in a checkpoint in the northern city of Kirkuk, police said.
HIT — Two civilians were killed when a roadside bomb went off near a U.S. patrol in Hit, 170 km (110 miles) west of Baghdad, a source in the civil defence directorate said.
BAGHDAD — Iraqi troops raided a Shi’ite mosque in southeastern Baghdad on Saturday night after receiving a tip-off that a suspected “terrorist cell leader” was hiding inside and detained 20 people, the U.S. military said.
KIRKUK — The Iraqi army said it had arrested Ali Najim Abdullah, the leader of a militant group called the Islamic Army in Kirkuk, 250 km (155 miles) north of Baghdad.
BAGHDAD — The bodies of four people shot in the head were dumped blindfolded and handcuffed in a street in Baghdad’s southwestern Jihad district, witnesses said.
KIRKUK — Gunmen killed a policeman as he headed to work in Kirkuk, police said.
RAMADI — Gunmen killed a member of the Sunni Iraqi Islamic Party in the rebel stronghold of Ramadi, 110km (68 miles) west of Baghdad, on Saturday, a hospital source said.
RAMADI — Gunmen killed three policemen on Saturday in Ramadi, a hospital source said.
KERBALA — Gunmen killed three people in different districts in the Shi’ite city of Kerbala, 110 km (68 miles) southwest of Baghdad, police said.
FACTBOX-Developments in Iraq on July 10
July 10 (Reuters) — The following are security and other developments in Iraq on Monday as of 1000 GMT.
BAGHDAD — Two bombs blasted Baghdad’s Talbiya district, a stronghold of Shi’ite militia fighters, killing 12 people and wounding 62, police said.
BAGHDAD — A bomb planted outside a restaurant near the central bank in central Baghdad killed six and wounded 28, police said.
KIRKUK — A suicide car bomb exploded outside the offices of the Kurdish PUK party in Kirkuk, killing three and wounding eight, police said.
BAQUBA — Eleven people were wounded, including five policemen, when a bomb planted inside a car exploded near a police patrol in Baquba, police said.
BAGHDAD — Gunmen attacked the bodyguards of a judge in Baghdad, killing two and wounding three, an Interior Ministry source said.
NEAR BAQUBA — Gunmen killed a member of the governing council of Diyala Province after attacking his motorcade. Three bodyguards were wounded.
NEAR HILLA — A policeman was killed and four wounded when a roadside bomb went off near their patrol near the city of Hilla, 100 km (62 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.
BAGHDAD — Five policemen were wounded when a roadside bomb went off near their patrol in northeastern Baghdad, police said.
DUJAIL — Gunmen kidnapped an agriculture official in Dujail, 55 miles north of Baghdad, police said.
NEAR DUJAIL — The body of a dead person, with gunshot wounds and bearing signs of torture was found near Dujail, police said.
SUWAYRA — Police retrieved the bodies of five people from Tigris river in the town of Suwayra, 40 km (25 miles) southeast of Baghdad, police said.
KUT — Police found the body of a person, with shotgun wounds, in the city of Kut, 170 km (110 miles) southeast of Baghdad, police said.
I was not aware that the UN had a war fighting capability, but we could find out. I say lets test the UN, give them Anbar, and if they get that under control we’ll send them to Basra.
Who here are the one’s in fantasy land?
Bush who realizes that democracy is in the best interests of Iraq and the region and the world (what a nut — huh?)?
Or the people who think that the UN (read individual member states that make up the UN) have any intention of supporting boots on the ground in Iraq?
They took off at the first sign of trouble.
We can debate whether it might be good, or it might be bad, all day long. Bottom line is it ain’t gonna happen.
Although madtom does have a good idea. Maybe getting them to commit to protecting a single village. Then 2. Then 3. Etc.
Pingback: Good Idea: UN peacekeepers around US military bases in Iraq :: from www.uruknet.info :: news from occupied Iraq - ch
Jarn writes.
No that’s not what I’m writing at all. Here’s one link there are many others.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/
(CNN) — The Bush administration began planning to use U.S. troops to invade Iraq within days after the former Texas governor entered the White House three years ago, former Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill told CBS News’ 60 Minutes.
Personally I don’t believe in conspiracy theories unless they are proved correct. This was nothing about spreading democracy, it was all about oil right from the start.
Allbright made a very stupid remark that was not in line with her other accomplishments, so I have to wonder if the quote from TAI’s blog really represented what she believed.
Well she has tried to contradict it. It was a rare glimpse of honesty from the US Admin., this wish to control of ME oil didn’t start with the current Bush.
I should also point out that the Food For Oil program was a UN operation.
Yes of course but it was controlled by the UN Sanctions Committee headed by the US. The uS refused to let the sanctions go although they were fully aware of the huge death toll. Every oil sale, every purchase of food or medical supplies was controlled by this committee, over 4,000 applications to buy food and/or medical supplies was turned down. What’s more by the time of the illegal invasion $8 billion was left sitting in this account unspent, since been embezzled by the US.
Char lie writes “Or the people who think that the UN (read individual member states that make up the UN) have any intention of supporting boots on the ground in Iraq?”
Neither should they have, if the USA wants Iraqi oil I don’t think either the UN or other countries should subsidise it. If the US wants to leave completely, which they won’t of course, that would be a different matter. But as for the UN leaving Iraq, it was the responsibility of the occupying power to provide the UN with security, this they failed to do, not without purpose I suspect.
Charles:
Is that how you characterize the UN refusing to back a unilateral war of aggression justified by a non-existant threat? History has proven that they were right.
If the threat before Saddam’s overthrow was considered by the UN to be non-existant, they would not have issued a dozen unsc resolutions unequivocally identifying Iraq as a threat.
I am referring to them pulling out of Iraq after their mission was bombed. Their mission was established AFTER the evil US overthrow of a benevolent dictator.
History hasn’t proven anything yet. It may well turn out that the world community turning its back on Iraq — both morally and materially — was a major facilitator of the chaos.
1. The UN has a very compelling base of resources at its disposal that could have helped secure and rebuild Iraq. They chose not to employ it. This is quite different from approving of the US led overthrow of Saddam. What significant contributions has the UN made to helping the long suffering Iraqi people in their quest for democracy, stability, and security? Think about what resources the UN has vs what they have actually delivered.
2. The insurgents/terrorists could never defeat the US coalition militarily. Their only hope as a minority is to leverage external political support against the US, and degrade the Iraqi government internally. Their tactic was chaos and murder. If they had no political base outside of Iraq to appeal to, their wanton acts of murder would provide no benefit to them strategically. They are playing to a faithful audience in this drama of death.
If the threat before Saddam’s overthrow was considered by the UN to be non-existent, they would not have issued a dozen unsc resolutions unequivocally identifying Iraq as a threat.
There was as I’m sure you know, no UN Resolution authorising an invasion of Iraq in march 2003. If you memory will stretch back far enough you will recall Powell going to the UN with a pack of lies to try and get one. He now feels embarrassed about it (tell that to the judge :) )
I am referring to them pulling out of Iraq after their mission was bombed. Their mission was established AFTER the evil US overthrow of a benevolent dictator.
And who was supposed to be providing security in Iraq at that time, according to the Geneva Convention? I wonder if it’s because the US didn’t want the UN in Iraq.
The UN has a very compelling base of resources at its disposal that could have helped secure and rebuild Iraq.
Any international contributions made thru the UN or any other source will simply reduce the cost to the USA for the oil imperialism. The USA has already embezzled money belonging to Iraqis that was supposed to be used for reconstruction. Basically you broke you fix it, or alternatively get out and let the UN take over.
The insurgents/terrorists could never defeat the US coalition militarily.
Well I must say they are doing pretty well considering how much the USA spoends on the military. The question is can the USA afford to keep doing it on borrowed money.
Pingback: Good Idea: UN peacekeepers around US military bases in Iraq :: from www.uruknet.info :: news from occupied Iraq - it